tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post1293049722915969161..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: "Why English-Speaking Children Can't Read"Catherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-53550851655288665212008-11-09T14:57:00.000-08:002008-11-09T14:57:00.000-08:00I don't think she understands gene-environment int...I don't think she understands gene-environment interactions. You can have a genetic susceptibility for something that is unmasked or made worse by an environmental stimulus. So the underlying problem may be there, but is only manifested under certain conditions. <BR/><BR/>This is one reason why cancers occur at different rates in different populations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-53874699613383334632008-11-09T14:52:00.001-08:002008-11-09T14:52:00.001-08:00I've been wondering the same thing. What happened...I've been wondering the same thing. What happened to the "delete forever" option?concernedCTparenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09755180042426047454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-21966085980489855212008-11-09T14:52:00.000-08:002008-11-09T14:52:00.000-08:00Apparently you have to click on the link for the i...Apparently you have to click on the link for the individual post to find the trash cans...Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-36848162254998870162008-11-09T14:50:00.000-08:002008-11-09T14:50:00.000-08:00Linda - Obviously you're right, and I was tryi...Linda - Obviously you're right, and I was trying to work out whether McGuinness' argument is wrong as a result.<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure her observation is "biologically correct." <BR/><BR/>As I understand it, she isn't saying that ethnic groups & subpopulations, etc. can't have genetic differences. Her argument is that English speaking peoples as a whole, throughout the world, can't have a systematic <I>genetic</I> difference from non-English speaking peoples as a whole. <BR/><BR/>In other words, if you were to do a separated-at-birth twin study looking at identical twins who were sent to homes speaking different native languages, you would find that twins sent to a family whose native language is English would have a higher rate of reading disability than twins sent to Spanish- or German-speaking homes.<BR/><BR/>I'm not that far into her book, but my sense is that she's criticizing the "phonemic awareness" theory of dyslexia specifically -- not the idea that reading problems would have a biological basis.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-31256428568070078172008-11-09T14:42:00.001-08:002008-11-09T14:42:00.001-08:00off-topic: what has become of the little trash can...off-topic: what has become of the little trash can below each comment - the one that allows you to delete comments if you wish?Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-51725443021148999902008-11-09T14:42:00.000-08:002008-11-09T14:42:00.000-08:00Thanks, Liz!Thanks, Liz!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35717852307068102482008-11-09T13:01:00.000-08:002008-11-09T13:01:00.000-08:00I decided to make a whole post in rebuttal to McGu...I decided to make a whole post in rebuttal to McGuinness's mistaken assertion, rather than a comment. It's here:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2008/11/why-mcguinness-is-mistaken-some-reading.html" REL="nofollow">Why McGuinness is Mistaken: Some Reading Problems ARE Biologically Based</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-50403607527611931522008-11-09T12:19:00.000-08:002008-11-09T12:19:00.000-08:00You quote McGuiness as saying, "For a biological t...You quote McGuiness as saying, "For a biological theory to be accurate, dyslexia would have to occur at the same rate in all populations." (I assume the highlighting is yours.) While it is likely true that biology is not responsible for all the differences in dyslexia between populations speaking different languages of varying degrees of transparency, her claim about biology is simply false. Many biological traits manifest at different rates in different populations, either because the populations have on average different alleles governing these traits, or because the populations live in different environments where the alleles have different effects.Linda Seebachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06426741820143208210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-12773871756053638592008-11-09T10:38:00.000-08:002008-11-09T10:38:00.000-08:00Here's the sidebar on dyslexia in France:Is it rea...Here's the sidebar on dyslexia in France:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2007/09/dyslexie-vraiment.html" REL="nofollow">Is it really dyslexia?</A><BR/><BR/>Ed has translated that one.<BR/><BR/>He'll get the orthography passage translated shortly.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-6092710048840427142008-11-09T10:24:00.000-08:002008-11-09T10:24:00.000-08:00Hi Rudbeckia -- French kids are apparently now doi...Hi Rudbeckia -- French kids are apparently now doing very poorly, thanks to the introduction of whole language teaching there. I still haven't gotten around to getting Ed to translate the article on constructivism in French schools, but he did translate the article on rising dyslexia there.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2008/04/comment-en-est-on-arriv-l.html" REL="nofollow">Comment en est-on arrive la?</A><BR/><BR/>(not sure that has the sidebar about dyslexia - Ed is translating the passage on orthography now)Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-89150948187745025862008-11-09T06:26:00.000-08:002008-11-09T06:26:00.000-08:00This is usually a discussion that goes around in c...This is usually a discussion that goes around in circles, because there is no agreed-upon definition of "dyslexia." Thus, arguments about what percent of what population where has "it" tend to be muddled and contradictory. <BR/><BR/>What we do know: <BR/><BR/>-a large number of individuals with "dyslexia-like" symptoms (poor decoding, scrambling words, reversing words, etc. ) are remediable with systematic instruction, and do not show phonological deficits -- problems blending, segmenting or manipulating sounds in words. You can call them "acquired dyslexics" or (as Zig Engelmann called them), "dysteachics." Sally Shaywitz identified them as "persistently poor readers" (with no apparent neurological disability) whose faulty reading practices she posits as environmental in origin.<BR/><BR/><BR/>- a small number of individuals have great difficulty learning to read, even with the best instruction. It is hypothesized that these difficulties are neurological in origin, but in most cases there is no clear evidence one way or another. It is an empirical question. These individuals may differ greatly from each other in the types of problems they have – lexical retrieval, working memory, visual and auditory integration, etc., but they all can be taught with explicit methods which may need to be adjusted to the individual.<BR/><BR/>-readers in other countries and languages also experience the types of problems commonly lumped under the category "dyslexia," that is, difficulty blending sounds, discriminating words and phonemes, retrieving symbols, words or meanings, etc. A literature search on the phenomenon in languages such as Spanish and Italian will yield many studies of "dyslexia" in those languages. Decoding is more easily taught, but learners with the problems blending sounds etc. will exhibit the same behaviors as "dyslexics" in English.<BR/><BR/>-early and systematic teaching of phoneme-grapheme relationships (many engaging, fun and multisensory programs exist for doing this with children as young as 3) tend to prevent most reading failure. Children with specific difficulties will still require additional instruction and support. However, if we could improve the instruction offered to the majority of children, the resources could be made available for the truly needy. <BR/><BR/>In most cases, the "cause" of the "reading problem" doesn't matter – the course of action is to teach the individual the needed skills.palisadeskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13700503881038569921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-43005260428171881072008-11-09T04:33:00.000-08:002008-11-09T04:33:00.000-08:00I'd love to see a study comparing English-speaking...I'd love to see a study comparing English-speaking children to French-speaking children, as French also has very strange spelling rules (especially the silent -ent on the 3rd person plural of -er verbs!).Rudbeckia Hirtahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06332438100772097804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-551833572721387802008-11-08T20:15:00.000-08:002008-11-08T20:15:00.000-08:00I have remediated a bunch of kids and have a curre...I have remediated a bunch of kids and have a current class of 9 with the help of volunteers from my church.<BR/><BR/>I believe that about 99% of my students are suffering from sight words, not biological based dyslexia.<BR/><BR/>I currently have one student whose father is a slow reader despite a very good phonics program in the lower grades (he remembers it, and knows all the rules. His wife doesn't know all the rules, she is a better reader than him although she got whole word methods. She's helping out in the class of 9 students and is learning the rules!<BR/><BR/>At any rate, I tested my UPP, a specially marked print I developed for remedial students, with these students. The student who I suspect has some form of biologically based dyslexia did better with a version of my UPP without hyphens, and said the hyphens were distracting. All of the other students preferred the hyphen version, and about half of them read markedly better with the hyphens.<BR/><BR/>I had a version of the UPP with blue vowels, but ALL of these 9 students were slowed down to some degree by the blue vowels and found them distracting.<BR/><BR/>I was surprised, the blue vowel version seemed much clearer to me. I'm working through my phonics lesson movies, one or two a night, removing blue vowels.<BR/><BR/>Here's my UPP page for those that are interested:<BR/><BR/>http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/upp.html<BR/><BR/>The student I suspect of biological dyslexia has different error patterns than my normal students with sight word based problems. However, some of the error patterns are the same. <BR/><BR/>But, the remediation is the same regardless of the cause--a lot of phonics, no sight words, nonsense words, spelling, and syllables.ElizabethBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128884454595561057noreply@blogger.com