tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post1481610382447589650..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: Revolutionizing Math at the School of the FutureCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-52889358393729804292010-12-15T03:52:30.883-08:002010-12-15T03:52:30.883-08:00I agree. When one side of the debate stoops to per...I agree. When one side of the debate stoops to personal attack, the discussion is over.<br /><br />I will not give up the debate locally. I'm done with watching reverse discrimination. The advocation needs to be for ALL students to receive appropriate instruction. No one should be sitting in more than one study hall because resources have been reallocated resultling in no appropriate classes for them to take.lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-8857250310194818702010-12-14T17:43:12.887-08:002010-12-14T17:43:12.887-08:00lgm, I am quite familiar with gifted/talented issu...lgm, I am quite familiar with gifted/talented issues. I've read Genius denied. I don't agree with all the things listed below, but I don't see gifted/talented in the following:<br /><br />"<b>PURE specifically asks for Chicago Public Schools to redirect money spent on existing retention/remediation programs</b> to these areas instead:<br /><br /> * test for learning disabilities and other problems well before 3rd grade<br /> * develop Student Learning Plans for all children showing signs of difficulty<br /> * bring back successful, proven Child-Parent Centers that helped low-income families with preparing very young children to enter school<br /> * make class sizes smaller/bring in more specialists"<br /><br />You obviously have a bone to pick with PURE, but it's not particularly relevant here.<br /><br />What I'm talking about is direct instruction, Singapore math, etc. vs. the "reform" math that asks parents to drill a child in the times tables and asks students to write about who helped them at home.<br /><br />And this<br /><br /><i>it's not ethical for parents to be doing the student's homework, so it's not discrimination since it shouldn't be happening.</i><br /><br />shows me you aren't reading very carefully and/or haven't been paying attention.<br /><br />I think I'm done taking you seriously. Regards.<br /><br />- HainishHainishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702663875791340591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-5985777291666346102010-12-14T17:09:59.077-08:002010-12-14T17:09:59.077-08:00KBS, it's not ethical for parents to be doing ...KBS, it's not ethical for parents to be doing the student's homework, so it's not discriminatio since it shouldn't be happening. If they are being expected to supply material, then someone needs to speak up - that practice has been banned for years here, as well as the wasting of food by using it as a project component. Tip off a reporter if you can't get it done in the board mtg.<br /><br />As far as academic help, what major urban district does not have rTi or double period classes, and mandated remedial support for nonclassified students? Chicago went to double period in '97.<br /><br />Where do you think the resource reallocation that PURE is advocating is going to come from? Reallocate means someone is going to lose...and history is showing the loser is the above grade level child. See Genius Denied and papers such as the one referred to here: http://news.uchicago.edu/news.php?asset_id=2071lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-21112300559831612762010-12-14T14:23:48.418-08:002010-12-14T14:23:48.418-08:00momof4, I'm glad your read the article yoursel...momof4, I'm glad your read the article yourself. I never said that PURE agrees with every statement I might make about math curriculum. I said that I support them because of what I know about CPS and about EM.<br /><br />lgm, I tried searching for news articles in which PURE opposes those programs, but could not find any. <br /><br /><i>... their child is behind the game due to their family or cultural environment...it's all [...] discrimination against race/class/income or bad teaching. </i><br /><br />If I, as a student, am "behind the game" because my parents don't speak English and have only a grade school education and cannot help me with my numerous arts and crafts projects, then it _is_ discrimination, by definition. <br /><br />I agree, there are many forms of remediation other than retention. Some research has shown retention to be harmful. I think it needs to be there as an option but used sparingly. At worst, it's more costly than the alternatives.Hainishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702663875791340591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-34821297946848765662010-12-14T06:54:19.018-08:002010-12-14T06:54:19.018-08:00Mah. It's more than unfair curriculum and asse...Mah. It's more than unfair curriculum and assessment. It's unfair expectations. This crowd beleives the grade level expectations are impossible - so high that the average nonclassified child can't meet them no matter what curriculum is used. In their viewpoint, the only reason some children are successful is because they have extra resources that are being withheld from most children - their political pressure here has resulted in abolishing G&T and flexible grouping by instructional need. They beleive G&T class or the 'high group' gave those children extra skills that were withheld from their children, not that G&T was there b/c the children figured out those skills for themselves. They view their children as capable, but discriminated against. Or at least the vocal crowd up here does. No one wants to admit that their child is behind the game due to their family or cultural environment...it's all a disability of some kind, or discrimination against race/class/income or bad teaching. <br /><br />Instead of pushing kids on who don't have skills and calling it 'fairness', they'd be better off asking for bridge grades, similar to the current Transitional First concept in addition to the already existing extra help programs (which clearly even with preK's low class sizes and specialist help can't make up for early childhood neglect in the space of a year). Transitional or Bridge classes are an extra year with curriculum targeted to make up academic deficiencies so the student can go on in the regular curriculum. We have them in our high school now, to help students move on to Geometry and Alg II. And that's after offering rTi throughout preK-5, double period math in 6-Alg, afterschool help sessions, and having a math teacher on duty every study hall. We don't have Everyday Math either - we have a Houghton Mifflin direct instruction type of program. It's time to admit that the effects of neglect and poor attendance can't be solved by Grade 3even with early childhood centers. These children need a face saving alternative..possibly a real summer semester instead of a half day of summer school with placements done by instructional need instead of age.lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-18451647650698384882010-12-14T06:17:00.688-08:002010-12-14T06:17:00.688-08:00I just read the article from the above link and PU...I just read the article from the above link and PURE specifically rejects a "high-stakes test" in favor of a combination of other assessments, including attendance, grades and a portfoli (the latter two are very easy to inflate). I did not see any specific statements regarding curriculum, although there was a demand for early intervention (which I support), rather than waiting until 3rd grade. There was also a specific rejection of retention because it is "too harmful". Curriculum and instruction do not appear to be a big part of the PURE agenda, although I do think that both are a big part of the problem, along with teachers who do not know enough content (math, phonics, grammar, composition and the disciplines) and effective ways to teach it (Direct Instruction, teacher-centered instruction).momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-55425719175240568162010-12-14T05:45:47.628-08:002010-12-14T05:45:47.628-08:00Actually, the Chicago parents filing the lawsuit h...Actually, the Chicago parents filing the lawsuit have a point.<br /><br />http://www.care2.com/causes/education/blog/chicago-parents-file-school-lawsuit-los-angeles-parents-pull-the-trigger/<br /><br />If students are being retained because they can't pass an exam based on the EM curriculum, then I'm with them. A recurring theme of this blog is that, for students to really be successful with the current style of math teaching, they actually need tutoring and extra help outside of school. It sounds like the CPS retention policy is hurting students who don't get that extra help (which is going to be a function of SES and, in this country, race).<br /><br />So, yes, the pushback against the CPS retention policy isn't a lack of political tolerance for advancement exams. It's a lack of political tolerance for an unfair curriculum and assessment.<br /><br />- HainishHainishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07702663875791340591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35028980249098971422010-12-13T19:57:35.986-08:002010-12-13T19:57:35.986-08:00Because academics reflect on intellect, and no one...Because academics reflect on intellect, and no one argues that you can be a good, successful person and also have a very low intellect.<br /><br />Now, some people do have low intellects, and I would argue that people of low intellect can and do perform noble work that is an important part of our society. But don't claim that saying someone has low athletic ability and saying that they have low intellectual ability are anything like the same kind of judgment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-13819316371107234272010-12-13T07:57:47.538-08:002010-12-13T07:57:47.538-08:00I took swimming lessons for years growing up and s...I took swimming lessons for years growing up and struggled to pass certain levels (mostly because I was extremely scrawny and sank until I started hitting puberty and finally had enough body fat to float). Frequently, I was the oldest kid in the class. Nobody protested that this was bad for my self-esteem and that the instructor should just pass me along to the next level without the necessary skills. Why should academics be any different?Crimson Wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03254830856234479999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-46986624833219230572010-12-13T07:13:56.278-08:002010-12-13T07:13:56.278-08:00Crimson Wife is right - unfortunately - about the ...Crimson Wife is right - unfortunately - about the lack of political tolerance for exams for advancement to the next level. A group of Chicago parents have a current lawsuit against the district because too many black and Hispanic kids are failing the advancement exams at grades 3,6 and 8. The entitlement mentality refuses to recognize the value of effort and academic achievement.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-51854123857804893612010-12-13T06:07:29.467-08:002010-12-13T06:07:29.467-08:00>>The administration would rather pass along...>>The administration would rather pass along kids who are unprepared for the next stage than get accused of racism, classism, etc. if certain groups are disproportionately retained.<br /><br />Exactly. We need a shift in thinking - instead of the supporters of the unprepared children going for "No Child Gets Ahead of those with the favored attribute" we need to shift to the sped viewpoint of testing each child and starting at the instructional level needed, then progressing at pace needed. <br /><br />Those that are behind can have the option of staying a few more years and learning over the summer. We do this already for sped, so it won't be hard to extend this option to children that are neglected. The caveat has to be that attendance and behavior are appropriate. This would be much less costly than the current scenario.lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-56922316945185869312010-12-12T15:52:12.785-08:002010-12-12T15:52:12.785-08:00Similarly, employers, empcolleges and universities...Similarly, employers, empcolleges and universities could have been pushing back all this time on k-12. Instead, employers decided it was cheaper and easier to lobby for more h-1b visas, and colleges and universities decided it was easier to take in international students.<br /><br />They acted, and continue to act, with short term interest in mind. But the house of cards is falling in on them, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-31327476002822594482010-12-12T13:32:06.196-08:002010-12-12T13:32:06.196-08:00I'm all in favor of a rigorous "exit exam...I'm all in favor of a rigorous "exit exam" at the end of each stage of schooling (primary, elementary, jr. high, and sr. high). Students don't move on to the next level without passing. The problem is there isn't the political will to implement them, particularly in a large district like mine that has a very diverse population. The administration would rather pass along kids who are unprepared for the next stage than get accused of racism, classism, etc. if certain groups are disproportionately retained.Crimson Wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03254830856234479999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-91565538436705247312010-12-12T12:49:13.163-08:002010-12-12T12:49:13.163-08:00The colleges should be pushing back at the high sc...The colleges should be pushing back at the high schools, the high schools should be pushing back at the middle schools and the middle schools should be pushing back at the elementary schools. Elementary schools are the start of the problem and that's where the fix needs to start; stricter conduct policies, better admin support, more realistic class groupings (including a serious look at full inclusion and differentiated instruction) better curriculum choices and better (and more efficient) instructional methods. The bettter choices need to be applied to middle school as well, so that high school entrants should be ready for high school work. <br />There's a reason that private schools require testing prior to admission and often require new students to attend summer school or repeat a year.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-19593523138704080982010-12-12T10:59:31.359-08:002010-12-12T10:59:31.359-08:00Does anyone ever hear about high schools pushing b...<i>Does anyone ever hear about high schools pushing back?</i><br /><br />No. And it's too bad, because that is one of the things high schools _could_ do with a high degree of perceived legitimacy.<br /><br />It's reasonable to expect incoming high school freshmen to have a certain set of skills under their belts. They can be sent back to the middle school if they don't, and be remediated on the middle school's budget.Hainishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-1430462966096089082010-12-12T04:34:29.235-08:002010-12-12T04:34:29.235-08:00I'm not selling it. Size is just one variable....I'm not selling it. Size is just one variable. Culture is another. I've seen size interfere with culture. Schools won't separate kids if it creates classes that are too small. AP classes are eliminated, or they might appear in the catalog, but rarely taught.<br /><br />Size means more money and it can be concentrated in one end or the other. One of the issues at our high school is to keep too much money from flowing to the low end with the assumption that the best students will do OK. In a survey to high school parents, I responded that many of the problems at the low end start in K-8, and that is where they should be solved. High schools must know that they are being sent kids who are perfectly able to master the basics on the state tests. Somehow, high schools are supposed to fix all of these problems. Does anyone ever hear about high schools pushing back?SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-16451550790033095342010-12-11T09:49:59.273-08:002010-12-11T09:49:59.273-08:00I'm not buying the "size is destiny"...I'm not buying the "size is destiny" argument.<br /><br />My alma mater (a government-run school) had 65 kids in my graduating class but we still had an honors track starting in 5th grade for math & English and 7th grade for the other subjects. Students had to score in a certain percentile on the CAT in order to be placed into the honors track (I forget the precise cutoff but it was ~87-88th). <br /><br />The school my kids are zoned for, by contrast, has over 2000 kids but heterogeneous courses until 11th.Crimson Wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03254830856234479999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-71142731583710976372010-12-11T05:08:15.662-08:002010-12-11T05:08:15.662-08:00In our high school, it would be difficult to get t...In our high school, it would be difficult to get to any AP class before your junior year. You would have to have special permission. Also, honors classes depend on the high school. A few years ago, our high school decided to go from 4 tiers to 3 tiers. We now have general, college prep, and honors categories, with AP classes lumped in with the honors group even though they are weighted higher.<br /><br />The general category (they sometimes refer to as the Success Academy!) contains all of the kids who are at least one year behind, academically. These are the kids they work with to just get them over the minimum state cutoff. The eliminated tier contained many kids who put in minimal effort and just showed up. They are now pushed up into the college prep tier even if they have no interest in going to college. Ironically, this made a college prep course a place you didn't want to be if you wanted to go to something other than a community college.<br /><br />In middle school, teachers decide your fate in terms of which level you will get for each course in high school. About twenty-five percent of the kids get into all honors classes. That is a huge number if you think that honors should really mean honors. Of course it doesn't. I think that some kids are scared away from honors because the guidance counselors claim that there will be so much more work. I don't see it with my son. So, honors is now the old college prep. <br /><br />It's difficult to judge high schools. I've been looking at a lot of high school web sites lately and you can get a little bit of a feel for each, especially if they have their class catalog and student handbook online.<br /><br />In larger schools, it's easier to separate kids by ability and to offer more courses and activities. I also notice that in some of the most expensive places to live, with the best high school scores, the high school doesn't look so great. They are usually in towns where the total size of the high school is less than 500.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-43808521418373638002010-12-10T22:19:33.723-08:002010-12-10T22:19:33.723-08:00The high school my kids are zoned for does not off...The high school my kids are zoned for does not offer *ANY* honors/AP classes until 11th grade. And unbelievably, even the allegedly "best" high school in the district- the one that families pay over a million dollars for a house just to live within its zone -doesn't offer honors classes until 11th. <br /><br />Which is precisely why we bought a home in a cheaper neighborhood so that we can save up for prep school...Crimson Wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03254830856234479999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-64260521566523092072010-12-10T19:11:16.670-08:002010-12-10T19:11:16.670-08:00I'll teach middle school math in my district a...I'll teach middle school math in my district again when they drive CMP out of our middle scbools and something better in. I'm not holding my breath though. <br /><br />They redid the elementary school curriculum into a mish-mash of EM and a traditional-ish text book enVision. But the daily lessons look like something created by committee. A big committee with people trying to impress each other with their conceptual knowledge. While they're always complaining about an inch deep, mile wide, this new curriculum is certainly that. It requires you to hop around in that puddle from one topic to the next. It puts three big concepts into one day and then goes on to something virtually unrelated the very next day. Oy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-3060866482413364602010-12-10T11:49:16.114-08:002010-12-10T11:49:16.114-08:00It actually looks like Minnetonka is one of the fe...It actually looks like Minnetonka is one of the few that doesn't use something like IMP. Perhaps they just changed that.<br /><br /><br />"Minnetonka High School is one of the few high schools in the west metro area offering a traditional High School Math sequence including:<br /><br />Geometry <br />Advanced Algebra (Trigonometry) <br />Pre-calculus <br />Calculus <br />Statistics"<br /><br />They also have an IB program. My niece was in an IB program in Michigan, but I don't see IB here in New England.<br /><br />In any case, I guess I should be happier because it sounds worse elsewhere. Parents drove out CMP in our middle school, but pushing the change further into the lower grades looks almost impossible.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-89067411345582116382010-12-10T07:28:16.477-08:002010-12-10T07:28:16.477-08:00This clearly varies by location. I think I live i...This clearly varies by location. I think I live in a location not that far from some of the posters here (CT), yet I see things going in a different direction here. There is a clear accelerated math track that starts in 6th (even though that means busing kids to the middle school) with pre-algebra. (Entry based on a test administered by the district to all 5th graders, not state tests, perhaps because of the timing of results.) The tracking is somewhat flexible - there are kids that join that group in 7th. Once they've taken algebra I (which is supposedly taught at the same level as the honors HS course), it becomes more difficult get on that track, but there are a lot of kids that take algebra in 8th grade. <br /><br />Meanwhile, down in the elementary schools they have started readiness grouping from at least 3rd on, for both math and reading/language arts. Kids become used to moving around to different classrooms. Subject acceleration is also not unusual in math at the elementary level, for kids who are beyond the groups available at their grade level. Oh - no EM here either, thank god. <br /><br />The readiness (I like that term better than ability) groups have only come about in the past few years. I'm pretty sure this approach is being driven by the administration at both district and school level. (We had superintendent and principal changes a few years ago.) Have to say that I'm thankful at least some things are done right - can't say that I think everything is perfect though.kcabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-24246447671394390062010-12-10T07:04:56.693-08:002010-12-10T07:04:56.693-08:00Steve, not every school has an AP track anymore. T...Steve, not every school has an AP track anymore. The richest district in the Twin Cities (minnetonka) uses IMP all the way up to AP Calc. Yes, there is still AP calc, but it's IMP til then. Guess how well that works?<br /><br />The parents tried to revolt a while ago. They've not yet been successful.(Supposedly that district is moving to supplement EM with Singapore Math for its special-gifted program, we'll see.)<br /><br />Here in MN, you can put your kid in college courses (for *high school credit*) starting as juniors, so some parents just pull the kids out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35353292948841615382010-12-10T06:46:14.865-08:002010-12-10T06:46:14.865-08:00The truly insidious thing is that the "reform...The truly insidious thing is that the "reformers" accuse teachers who try to teach the necessary basic skills of having low expectations. <br /><br />Teachers are told that they must not have enough belief in the kids' abilities if they go with straight forward instruction aimed at teaching the basics. If they really thought their students were capable, teachers are told, they'd only be asking "higher level questions" (and those given as examples are definitely not "higher level") and using all hands-on, let the kids figure it out and teach each other methods.JRLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-87024380137353388462010-12-10T06:10:09.380-08:002010-12-10T06:10:09.380-08:00"Consider yourself lucky to have an AP Calc t..."Consider yourself lucky to have an AP Calc track .."<br /><br />This must be location dependent. I don't see any high schools in our area that don't offer AP classes. Even in our major urban area, there might be fewer AP classes, but the best students get sent to one particular high school that offers lots of AP classes.<br /><br />I feel "lucky" that our high school is good and offers many AP classes. It's hard for me to imagine a high school where they would think that tracking is "unfair". Many high schools have 4 different levels of classes.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.com