tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post1790074314389316889..comments2024-03-08T00:21:56.482-08:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: culture clashCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-73734340724936863872011-08-01T18:59:33.893-07:002011-08-01T18:59:33.893-07:00Oh, and when all the furor about the Tiger Mom was...Oh, and when all the furor about the Tiger Mom was going on my kids took to calling me a Pussy Cat Mom. Obviously I have failed, lol.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04329601656633314983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-39332336579015847142011-08-01T18:58:05.823-07:002011-08-01T18:58:05.823-07:00"I tend to be around a bunch of homeschooling..."I tend to be around a bunch of homeschooling Catholic families, and they very much work on building up those good habits of housework, orderliness, and the like. But they tend to have large families and come from large families, so 1) they have more need entropy to fight, 2)they have less disposable income to outsource the work, and 3) they know how to organize the work in the first place."<br /><br />So this would explain me. Habits are the only way to keep a house of 9 running. For my kids academics are the core. Music and sports are upbto them but never academics.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04329601656633314983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-15600313106642884902011-08-01T14:41:52.167-07:002011-08-01T14:41:52.167-07:00About college students and laundry--there are now ...About college students and laundry--there are now campus laundry services that will do your laundry for the low, low price of $200+ per semester. So the kid actually sweating over the coin machine was pretty old school. <br /><br />http://dormmom.com/Amy Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-48955686266302158472011-08-01T14:31:33.156-07:002011-08-01T14:31:33.156-07:00I know a lot of people get uncomfortable about pay...<i>I know a lot of people get uncomfortable about paying kids for chores, but I haven't seen any downside myself. </i><br /><br />I have no problem with that at all!<br /><br />No problem philosophically, that is.<br /><br />In reality, I am apparently incapable of keeping track of payment-for-chores.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-8929784670708586972011-08-01T14:30:18.857-07:002011-08-01T14:30:18.857-07:00I remember when I was having Jimmy, everyone had t...I remember when I was having Jimmy, everyone had to read beaucoup books in order to have the first clue!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-66287229249216453502011-08-01T14:29:55.407-07:002011-08-01T14:29:55.407-07:00Another skill that almost got lost within a few ge...<i>Another skill that almost got lost within a few generations? <br /><br />Breastfeeding.</i><br /><br />Oh, gosh --- that's for sure!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-63078945478111552212011-08-01T14:29:10.791-07:002011-08-01T14:29:10.791-07:00That said, I'm 38, and my mother "forgot&...<i>That said, I'm 38, and my mother "forgot" to teach me how to be a homemaker. She worked full time always, but as a teen she'd raised her younger sibs. She knew how to cook, clean, sew her own clothes, garden, diaper a baby, give baths, etc. She managed to not teach me any of those skills, because she thought such things were beneath the modern professional woman I'd become. And then I quit my job to raise my kids :) Oops. :)</i><br /><br />Right!<br /><br />That's what I was asking -- I've definitely seen this -- and unfortunately I've been part of it, too.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-54137393705335457832011-08-01T14:28:02.194-07:002011-08-01T14:28:02.194-07:00Fast forward to the present and I'm signing my...<i>Fast forward to the present and I'm signing my tween daughter up for every machine sewing class that fits our summer schedule (two last year, one this year). </i><br /><br />Classic!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-80829377890130872762011-08-01T14:27:22.845-07:002011-08-01T14:27:22.845-07:00One day at work, I remember overhearing a colleagu...<i>One day at work, I remember overhearing a colleague on the phone with his kid at college, patiently trying to explain how to operate a coin washing machine. I don't want my kids to be in that position!! </i><br /><br />Good for you!<br /><br />I blew it on that front.<br /><br />(In my defense, I will say that we have the unusual situation of having help for our autistic kids -- and that has meant 'too much help': if I were doing more of the household work, C. would be doing a lot more of it, too. So we have unique circumstances that, combined with short-attention-theater, have affected things...)Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-73040139201577370362011-08-01T14:25:45.789-07:002011-08-01T14:25:45.789-07:00My mother sewed all our clothes. It did make econo...<i>My mother sewed all our clothes. It did make economic sense back in the 70's.</i><br /><br />I sewed a lot of my clothes!<br /><br />I loved it --- wish I were still sewing today.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-11670901963950292882011-08-01T05:11:14.704-07:002011-08-01T05:11:14.704-07:00My mother sewed all our clothes. It did make econo...My mother sewed all our clothes. It did make economic sense back in the 70's. She even made my prom dress, a really nice dress. She refused to teach us kids to sew, saying "if you know how to sew, you will have to do it". She did not do it for joy, but to save money.<br /><br />I don't spend a lot of time obsessing over the state of my kids rooms. But I do want them to be able to do yardwork, cook dinner, run the washing machine, and put laundry away. To that end, I have the kids do a lot of prep work in the kitchen (yes, I let them use knives), clear and clean the table, clean the floor under the table, help out in the garden, and put their laundry away. These are all chores they are expected to do. One day at work, I remember overhearing a colleague on the phone with his kid at college, patiently trying to explain how to operate a coin washing machine. I don't want my kids to be in that position!!Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08364766877630085946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-45939441797970238172011-08-01T03:06:41.647-07:002011-08-01T03:06:41.647-07:00"All it takes is one generation to lose the k..."All it takes is one generation to lose the knowledge."<br /><br />Indeed. My mom had to sew all of her clothes in high school and her monstrously heavy sewing machine (purchased used in the early 70s) is her faithful friend. I, meanwhile, never really learned to do machine sewing (although my hand sewing isn't that bad). Fast forward to the present and I'm signing my tween daughter up for every machine sewing class that fits our summer schedule (two last year, one this year). I realize that sewing clothes is usually not going to be economically worthwhile, but 1) stuff like curtains is and 2) I expect sewing is rather good for spatial skills. The classes are hideously expensive, but it's a lifelong skill, and I think she'll be able to get a lot of joy out of it if she sticks to it.Amy Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-39815786658043662892011-07-31T21:36:51.661-07:002011-07-31T21:36:51.661-07:00That said, I'm 38, and my mother "forgot&...<i>That said, I'm 38, and my mother "forgot" to teach me how to be a homemaker. She worked full time always, but as a teen she'd raised her younger sibs. She knew how to cook, clean, sew her own clothes, garden, diaper a baby, give baths, etc. She managed to not teach me any of those skills, because she thought such things were beneath the modern professional woman I'd become. And then I quit my job to raise my kids :) Oops. :)</i><br /><br />I'm also 38, and that paragraph rang so true to me, as well (and probably to so many others of our time slice) -- my mom made no bones about how unenjoyable she found life at home with we kids (she always referred to them as her "coma years") and tried to impress on me the importance of *not* being a stay at home mom.<br /><br />Another skill that almost got lost within a few generations? Breastfeeding. It may be "natural," but it sure as heck isn't necessarily easy. It boggles my mind that I had to pay lactation consultants and read books about nursing instead of being able to turn to my mom and aunts for guidance.<br /><br />And how strange that it went from (in, say, the 70s) from being the thing that only lower class women did (because they couldn't afford formula) to being the thing that upper middle class women now do (because they can afford to be home).<br /><br />(But I'm really pulling this train off topic, sorry.)TerriWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200629750466604443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-64046309083283215692011-07-31T21:25:17.367-07:002011-07-31T21:25:17.367-07:00I tend to be around a bunch of homeschooling Catho...I tend to be around a bunch of homeschooling Catholic families, and they very much work on building up those good habits of housework, orderliness, and the like. But they tend to have large families and come from large families, so 1) they have more need entropy to fight, 2)they have less disposable income to outsource the work, and 3) they know how to organize the work in the first place.<br /><br />I think a big reason that recent parents have "forgotten" to teach their children these tasks is that they outsource the doing of them, because it's more efficient than either doing them themselves, or trying to get the kids to do them. Which takes less time? Picking up the toys off the floor yourself, or helping your 4 yr old to do it? the former, no doubt. And if you have more money than time, you hire people to mow the lawn, clean the house, do household repairs, do the shirt laundering, eat at restaurants or order delivery, etc. So children in that house simply won't see these tasks being done, and the habit can't get formed.<br /><br />That said, I'm 38, and my mother "forgot" to teach me how to be a homemaker. She worked full time always, but as a teen she'd raised her younger sibs. She knew how to cook, clean, sew her own clothes, garden, diaper a baby, give baths, etc. She managed to not teach me any of those skills, because she thought such things were beneath the modern professional woman I'd become. And then I quit my job to raise my kids :) Oops. :)<br /><br />But I had absolutely none of those habits established--didn't know how to clean properly, or cook well, or sew, or garden. I didn't know the faintest thing about running a household. And I had no experience with children either. I'm still learning, and now I do it from books!<br /><br />All it takes is one generation to lose the knowledge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-71007409745585317482011-07-31T15:39:09.314-07:002011-07-31T15:39:09.314-07:00"I only very rarely focused on household chor..."I only very rarely focused on household chores & on teaching C how to do them -- and, more importantly, on trying specifically to build the **habit** of doing them.<br /><br />"Have others seen this?"<br /><br />I am very particular about the kids' rooms, although I would still like to get rid of 30% of their stuff. I have a compensation scheme going where a child can earn 50 cents a night for a clean bedroom and $2 for cleaning both living room and own room. If they both clean their rooms and the living room, they can get $1.50 each. We also do automatic deductions for charity (about 10%) and travel spending (20%--to ensure they have spending money on the road). Between birthdays and Christmas, the kids buy all toys, nearly all art supplies and for anything else where I'm not morally opposed, but don't feel like laying out household money. It's kind of an expensive scheme, and I'd pay less if I were setting it up today, but it has the virtue that I can reasonably ask the kids, if you want XYZ, why don't you save up for XYZ? It's also been absolutely amazing for the kids' math computation skills.<br /><br />I know a lot of people get uncomfortable about paying kids for chores, but I haven't seen any downside myself. Realistically, I was never going to get buy-in (particularly not from my oldest) without a cash incentive. We don't pay the kids either on Sunday or if the kids have waited until too late at night to start on their rooms (if they clean on Sunday, I'll put the money in their charity box). Interestingly, the paid cleaning has so instilled a love of order in my oldest that she will clean her room even during those ineligible times, just because that's how she feels her room ought to be. (I've been watching the show Hoarders lately, and the experts get very worried about young children living in hoarder households, because if they don't ever have the experience of living with clean rooms, it will have lifelong consequences for them.) <br /><br />Where I've sort of dropped the ball is other household tasks. This summer I realized that my oldest (who is 9 now) had never operated a toaster. She's done a bit of sandwich making, but I feel like I have a lot of kitchen stuff to teach her over the next two years. We have twice a month cleaning help, so the kids don't have any experience of heavy cleaning (as opposed to tidying), and I suppose that I should make at least a token effort to teach bathroom cleaning, kitchen cleaning, vacuuming, dusting, etc. although (to be very honest) at this point my knowledge of these areas is mostly theoretical. <br /><br />Everybody minimally needs to make sure that their child can run a washer and dryer before going to college.Amy Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-22112638018594092732011-07-31T13:47:17.900-07:002011-07-31T13:47:17.900-07:00My favorites are the resileint but not compliant o...<i>My favorites are the resileint but not compliant ones. They do interesting things. </i><br /><br />I think they're a favorite of a lot of people!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-66086549241649014312011-07-31T13:44:35.949-07:002011-07-31T13:44:35.949-07:00It looks like I score below the average for my age...<i>It looks like I score below the average for my age and SAT score</i><br /><br />Wait!<br /><br />What test are you talking about? (SAT or something else?)Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-69637610569260408892011-07-31T13:43:58.322-07:002011-07-31T13:43:58.322-07:00I also have a working hypothesis that at some poin...I also have a working hypothesis that at some point high compensation in high-SES districts starts to attract the wrong people unless you have a mission-driven culture, which I haven't seen too often in affluent suburban schools.<br /><br />Until I had direct personal experience of an affluent public school, I thought rich schools were good schools by definition because you get what you pay for.<br /><br />Turns out that no matter how much money you spend on a public school, it's still a public school, and in a very well-funded district it's a public school where accountability can be outsourced to parents.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-69132470163653567742011-07-31T13:43:37.168-07:002011-07-31T13:43:37.168-07:00Same anonymous again: It's perfectly true tha...Same anonymous again: It's perfectly true that there are many parents who don't even try to encourage academic (or athletic or musical or any other kind) of success. Parents who are sort of limp, and who want to be their child's friend rather than parent. But it's equally as true that some children are a combination of compliant and resilient; it doesn't seem to harm them to get with the (very demanding) program that parents like Amy Chua put forth. Other kids are resilient, but not especially compliant, some are compliant, but not resilent, and some are neither. It's pretty important to figure out which type you're dealing with. Kids who are neither resilient nor comliant are hard to parent, if you have any ambitions for them. But more to the point, it's hard to be that kid. They're always getting grief from the adults because they don't comply with the demands of school very well, and then they feel bad because they're not very emotionally tough either. My favorites are the resileint but not compliant ones. They do intersting things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-53700986867611584692011-07-31T13:39:38.267-07:002011-07-31T13:39:38.267-07:00I've heard the 'why should I cast my pearl...<i>I've heard the 'why should I cast my pearls before swine' comments enough to realize that culture and management of the culture is the issue. </i><br /><br />"It's the culture, stupid!"<br /><br />I've come to believe that the culture of an organization or work place is **the** central factor determining whether people do their jobs well.<br /><br />I also think that good and bad incentives shape culture over time, which means that a good culture can resist newly imposed bad incentives for some time and vice versa.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-65374464214605599282011-07-31T12:44:11.344-07:002011-07-31T12:44:11.344-07:00I wasn't really kidding about my unfortunately...I wasn't really kidding about my unfortunately now-very-poor memory, so if there's something I need to do or need the kids to do, it *has* to be on a list on the refrigerator. Thankfully, this seems to fit in pretty well with getting the kids to do things, the carrot of being able to check it off their lists. The byproduct is that now they're used to checking the fridge for their tasks and want to Get Things Done so they can check em off.TerriWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200629750466604443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-44299381467264583292011-07-31T12:08:04.915-07:002011-07-31T12:08:04.915-07:00btw - once again, I'm not trying to criticize ...btw - once again, I'm not trying to criticize American culture (or even to criticize myself, particulary) -- it's just that I have the sense that some fairly important, common sense knowledge has gone missing.<br /><br />I should add that figuring out the fact that I 'forgot' to instill good habits in C has not enabled me to go ahead and instill good habits in C.<br /><br />sigh<br /><br />Have I ever mentioned that my entire household waits for me to forget?<br /><br />I ask someone to do something and then, if that someone doesn't want to do the something I've asked him or her to do, he or she waits until I've forgotten all about it and then doesn't do it.<br /><br />That's life in my house.<br /><br />For me to instill the room cleaning habit in C, I would have to spend a very large portion of every single day REMEMBERING that I have a plan to instill a the room cleaning habit in C.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-80121800220890286542011-07-31T12:02:48.786-07:002011-07-31T12:02:48.786-07:00The point is, some aspects of tiger momming - like...<i>The point is, some aspects of tiger momming - like making them keep going even when they whine - can work. It is hard to tell where to lay off, though.</i><br /><br />Yes!<br /><br />Absolutely true!<br /><br />Here's something I've thought about...and I wonder how others feel about it.<br /><br />About a year ago, I realized I had essentially 'forgotten all about' the concept of teaching my child to have "good habits."<br /><br />When I say "forgot," I'm making a cultural argument: I think my parents believed that kids needed to develop "good habits," and my generation (and succeeding generations) sort of moved on to other ideas about child rearing having to do with....the importance of education and/or self-esteem and self-efficacy; the importance of friends; the importance of extra-curricular activities....<br /><br />I spent most of C's childhood obsessing over math (and spelling) - and completely forgot about teaching him to clean his room BEYOND scolding him for not doing so and complaining to Ed about lack of room-cleaning....<br /><br />I only very rarely focused on household chores & on teaching C how to do them -- and, more importantly, on trying specifically to build the **habit** of doing them.<br /><br />Have others seen this?<br /><br />Does it seem to you that the concept of teaching kids "good habits" isn't a major part of child rearing discourse?<br /><br />(Sorry - "discourse" is pedantic - but it's what I mean - )Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-19803655564829411482011-07-30T17:53:30.521-07:002011-07-30T17:53:30.521-07:00This thread is fascinating to me. My children are...This thread is fascinating to me. My children are 25, 27, and 30. I could no more have "Tiger Mommed" them than I could have flown to the moon, because they had their own ideas about what they would commit to. One became a zookeeper (this means getting a degree in zoology, which means passing all kinds of math, chemistry, and physics classes that she found very hard and very boring. One did one semester in college and dropped out, but is a fabulous writer -- always has been, since grade school. Hope she gets to earn her living at it. Third bumbled around, chose his own instrument and his own sport (and at the time of his choice). Had a wild youth. Is now in college and working -- all this to say, you can insist of some things with pretty much all kids (you must go to school, you must help with chores, you must attend family events) but after that, children are extremely variable in terms of how hard you can push, and especially if you don't have a thousands or years old culture backing you up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-33340445652840606482011-07-30T17:35:56.207-07:002011-07-30T17:35:56.207-07:00"If he decides he wants it, maybe you can pro..."If he decides he wants it, maybe you can promise to pay for a semester in Paris if he gets A's in three semesters of French!"<br /><br />Ooh, that sounds really good.Amy Pnoreply@blogger.com