tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post5152721543852183838..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: Modern math is a river in EgyptCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-65667647341893339512010-10-06T14:34:18.708-07:002010-10-06T14:34:18.708-07:00Have you used the free placement tests on singapor...Have you used the free placement tests on singapore math's website? it should give you a finer grained idea of where there are gaps.<br /><br />http://www.singaporemath.com/Placement_Test_s/86.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-89113349773364887422010-10-06T14:15:40.117-07:002010-10-06T14:15:40.117-07:00Auntie Ann,
That's great that your 3rd grade ...Auntie Ann,<br /><br />That's great that your 3rd grade child is ready for 3A. Many of us found out that our American children tended to be a bit behind, so your 5th grader might end up somewhere different than Singapore 5 and that's perfectly normal.<br /><br />Some of us also noticed that there was a pretty big jump from 3B to 4A. You may not find that to be true, but I thought I'd throw that out.<br /><br />I wish I had known about a good spelling program, but my youngest is a sophomore now. We did use Megawords, but not as much as Catherine. It all helped, but I was plugging gaps here and there, rather than just parallel teaching with a separate curriculum (which I found to be more effective in the long run.)<br /><br />SuasnSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-58389170489107445672010-10-06T12:19:59.935-07:002010-10-06T12:19:59.935-07:00The Singapore Math books came yesterday, and I was...The Singapore Math books came yesterday, and I was actually pretty happy with where our kids stand with respect to them. The 3A book is a pretty good fit with our 3rd grader, and I'm still getting a feel for where our 5th grader fits in.<br /><br />---<br /><br />If you want a great spelling program, I can't say enough good things about All About Spelling. It's really good, uses multiple teaching techniques, including direct instruction, and has all the rules clearly spelled out.<br /><br />---<br /><br />I agree that memorization is a dying art. It's a great skill to have, and like any other, it takes practice. I think our 10 year old is in pretty good shape, because she's been in a theater group for years and is used to learning lines. The 8 year old could stand to exercise that part of his brain. My grandmother used to make it a point to memorize things all the time. She was in her early 90's when she died, and her mind was sharp as a tack.Auntie Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777983027361603449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-73079441273434045862010-10-04T16:31:57.670-07:002010-10-04T16:31:57.670-07:00"My wife got him to memorize Poe's "...<i>"My wife got him to memorize Poe's "The Raven", although some might claim that there are fewer side benefits from that kind of memorization."</i><br /><br />Poe might not be the best author for memorized passages :-), but if one has a religious or classical bent, there are plenty of historically important texts out there that warrant a lifetime of memorization! The Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence come to mind, if one is from the USA. Likewise various Biblical passages and religious creeds. Key passages from Shakespeare, classic novels, etc. Short but influential poems. Songs. That kind of thing.<br /><br />SusanS, that's a really good point about high school AP classes requiring memorization and "regurgitating." I'd add that rigorous STEM college courses require the same. And it really is a skill that can be practiced. (Not to mention that memorization is sooo much easier when one has a scaffolding of preexisting knowledge to hang it on.)jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-9370787317436666852010-10-04T13:27:14.219-07:002010-10-04T13:27:14.219-07:00The funny thing about the grade and middle school&...The funny thing about the grade and middle school's disdain for memorizing is how disconnected they are from the requirements of high school. Bright/gifted kids suck in more facts and can spit them out easier. Everyone else could use some techniques, perhaps, or at least some experience having actually memorized something in the past.<br /><br />AP and honors classes appear to require massive amounts of "regurgitating," as many lower grade teachers would call it (ours did). Yes, there are critical thinking expectations that are more sophisticated than in the regular classes, but the fact-collecting machine is also in full gear with the higher classes. The fact that the lower schools would ignore this is very important for parents to know and realize as they look toward high school and college.<br /><br />The "regurgitation" and "superficial knowledge" that my son was a natural at became critical to him getting good grades in high school. No one is making fun of him here. But if your child isn't a natural at it, don't expect the schools to help you. Apparently, critical thinking is an isolated island of the mind.<br /><br />If my son doesn't soak in the facts naturally, he knows how to approach content rich material because, like Steve and others, I had him memorize all kinds of things when he was young, when he thought it was fun. <br /><br />"It sounds like it's a school for gifted kids that avoids one of their dominant learning styles."<br /><br />That's a good way of putting it. In fact, it is often actively discouraged as some of us have witnessed over the years.<br /><br />SusanSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-63775131067315129162010-10-04T12:24:52.407-07:002010-10-04T12:24:52.407-07:00My son complained that the elements were out of or...My son complained that the elements were out of order and that there are now more elements. I think he just wanted to avoid our request to sing, if you could call it singing.<br /><br />We are now trying to direct what he memorizes. When he was young, he memorized things like the full list of Pokemon. A couple of years ago, he started to memorize a lot of digits of pi and 'e'. <br /><br />The periodic table, however, has many more connections. Since he memorized them in order, he could see the structure and meaning of the columns. He would ask me to give him two elements so he could figure out if and how they combined.<br /><br />My wife got him to memorize Poe's "The Raven", although some might claim that there are fewer side benefits from that kind of memorization. <br /><br />Perhaps some kids need an alternative curricula or structure, but now that our son is in high school taking honors courses, I see no issues. Even in the lower grades, I would prefer a proper (Core-Knowledge) curriculum, with very specific goals for content and skills. I never, ever thought it would be a good idea just to turn him loose academically with minimal structure.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-50501858865615366182010-10-03T21:03:56.896-07:002010-10-03T21:03:56.896-07:00SteveH, I completely agree. Memorized texts and s...SteveH, I completely agree. Memorized texts and sets of facts can be tremendously rich sources of insight and connection-finding. I won't say much more about my kid or my friends' kids, as they're still quite young and have yet to be able to make the kinds of connections your son is making, but that's not far in their future. <br /><br />Meanwhile, the best I can do is encourage him to use his brain to learn high-quality stuff, not just memorize car makes and models or TV shows. :-)<br /><br />What schools or curricula *are* best suited to kids like this? They need to move at their own paces and be allowed to pursue their academic obsessions, but some discipline and year-to-year structure would be nice too.<br /><br />(I now have Tom Lehrer singing "The Elements" in my ear. I might have memorized that song once.)jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-3964140254934887132010-10-02T05:24:44.849-07:002010-10-02T05:24:44.849-07:00In sports and music, skills, practice, and hard wo...In sports and music, skills, practice, and hard work are king, but in education, many see that approach as not only wrong, but damaging, even for gifted kids. This isn't an issue of "drill and kill" where they don't want to kill their love of learning with drill. For many of these kids, it's not drill, it's absorbing like a sponge. Facts don't preclude or inhibit their understanding.<br /><br />My son memorized the periodic table last summer. Would the school discourage that sort of thing as being rote and meaningless? Many gifted kids have incredible memories, but it's not just some sort of genetic rote trick. At the same time, he learned about the categories of elements, valence electrons, and why they combine in different ratios. He read a book on string theory. Memorizing the periodic table was not an unnecessary step (for him) in terms of his understanding. Perhaps some don't want to see the huge connection between facts and understanding. He could look everything up in a book, but his brain is already miles ahead because it's all right there. Every new piece of information is visible to him because it does not have to be processed through a book.<br /><br />It sounds like it's a school for gifted kids that avoids one of their dominant learning styles. My son does quite well discovering things via facts and skills.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-11177627918403306442010-10-01T09:56:36.961-07:002010-10-01T09:56:36.961-07:00I suppose it didn't help my case when they spo...I suppose it didn't help my case when they spoke glowingly of Lucy Calkins's approach to writing workshops, and I said, "When I hear the name 'Lucy Calkins,' I get nervous. Can you tell me more about how your students practice writing and get feedback?" Or something to that effect.<br /><br />The Core Curriculum comment followed quickly after that. I guess they're onto me. :-)jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-55928020656569236092010-10-01T07:47:46.469-07:002010-10-01T07:47:46.469-07:00This is heartening:
A NYTimes article on Singapor...This is heartening:<br /><br />A NYTimes article on Singapore math becoming more popular int he U.S.<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/education/01math.html?_r=1&hp<br /><br />Also,<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/09/26/why-more-students-rely-on-tutors<br /><br />(Did one of you guys sneak onto the staff of the New York Times?)Hainishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-2997157773534522462010-10-01T06:41:07.639-07:002010-10-01T06:41:07.639-07:00"If you're looking for a Core Curriculum ..."If you're looking for a Core Curriculum school, this is not it!"<br /><br />That would raise red flags for me. I guess you have to cultivate your "ground" connection.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-11081542351577016422010-10-01T06:09:02.010-07:002010-10-01T06:09:02.010-07:00"Were they hostile to a request you made?&quo...<i>"Were they hostile to a request you made?"</i><br /><br />Yes, although I admit that I pushed them a bit. :-) I asked about their curricular for history, literature, grammar, etc., and I also told them that one of my educational goals for my kid was excellent writing skills. I wanted some assurance that they had a plan for that. (They did, sort of, but the director then announced, "We don't do checklists. If you're looking for a Core Curriculum school, this is not it!")<br /><br />This was at an information session for parents of potential students, so -- to be fair -- they were trying to cast this school as being different from the public schools. Lots of emphasis on independent learning, freedom to learn quickly and with depth, complex topics presented early, mixed-age classes, and other aspects that gifted kids just cannot get in our public schools. Plus, a teacher "on the ground" let me know that they *do* teach quite a bit of geography, grammar, spelling, and all that. Core Curriculum hostility or not, the school may still be the best option for my kid.jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-6192206219188159282010-10-01T05:06:21.218-07:002010-10-01T05:06:21.218-07:00"... they seemed somewhat hostile to the idea..."... they seemed somewhat hostile to the idea of actually stating what overall content and skills their students ought to learn over their years at the school."<br /><br />Were they hostile to a request you made? I'm looking at their web site now and they do talk a lot about being student driven, thematic, interdisciplinary, with independent learning projects and hands-on experiences. Outside of using Singapore Math, I see little that is concrete and direct. It's sounds more like top-down, discovery, thematic learning on steroids.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-42820893580384366032010-09-30T18:32:19.730-07:002010-09-30T18:32:19.730-07:00I just found a school in the Boston area that teac...I just found a school in the Boston area that teaches Singapore Math! Huzzah! (It's the Anova School, a new private school for gifted students.)<br /><br />Not only do they use Singapore, but they form the math groups by mastery, not age. (Or is it "achievement"?) Each child is expected to finish at least a year's worth of Singapore work by the end of the school year, no matter where they started. Apparently some of their math groups have kids of wildly varying ages. We'll see how it works out for them, as it's a brand new school.<br /><br />Problem is, they seemed somewhat hostile to the idea of actually stating what overall content and skills their students ought to learn over their years at the school. And they couldn't (or wouldn't) tell me what curricula they were planning to use for history or grammar -- I hope it's something. <br /><br />At least the math plan looks good. All the other private schools around here, Montessori excepted, use TERC or EM.jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-32957361314880397622010-09-30T14:03:33.729-07:002010-09-30T14:03:33.729-07:00The district I'm in does offer tracks that get...The district I'm in does offer tracks that get kids to algebra in either 7th or 8th grades. (Test @end of 5th to get into pre-algebra in 6th, tests given @ end of 6th, pre-algebra, and/or 7th grade math to get into 8th grade algebra.) It's not a bad system, but I'm still concerned that it's not enough. <br /><br />The problem is, what is taught during those courses also needs to be good enough. The 7th or 8th grade algebra supposedly contains the same content as the HS honors algebra course, but it seemed weak to me & doesn't meet all the criteria for "authentic algebra". Ditto the 8th grade geometry course (supposedly same as HS honors geometry), early days still in that course for my 8th grader but the text is Serra's Discovering Geometry. The kids taking this course are supposed to be (well, they *are*) the top math kids in the district and I'm concerned the math just isn't rigorous enough for that group.kcabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-47146225525629468052010-09-30T12:08:18.210-07:002010-09-30T12:08:18.210-07:00Auntie Ann,
Search the archives here for some goo...Auntie Ann,<br /><br />Search the archives here for some good suggestions.<br /><br /> Also, if you can pick up a copy of The Well-Trained Mind, you will find a ton of helpful info (and curriculums) for homeschoolers.<br /><br />Patching the gaps is only one thing you can do, but you will find it exasperating. I also had to just parallel teach from a good coherent curriculum. In my case, I used all of the Singapore books, but for my slower son I used Saxon. <br /><br />Later, I realized that no one was really teaching him how to write properly, so I dug up curriculums for that, also. <br /><br />You have to teach writing and grammar because rarely does any school do it nowadays. Spelling, too.<br /><br />Check out homeschool sites, also. They saved me a lot of headaches back then. <br /><br />You have to do what you have to do.<br /><br />SusanSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-84115071078242522792010-09-30T09:46:00.252-07:002010-09-30T09:46:00.252-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-13325410597081773122010-09-30T09:45:54.669-07:002010-09-30T09:45:54.669-07:00Singapore Math is well regarded at KTM, but it'...Singapore Math is well regarded at KTM, but it's not a remedial sort of thing. It won't (necessarily) help you find and correct large gaps in skills. I used it with my son while he was getting Everday Math at school. It wasn't an easy thing to do. He really didn't want to do one math at school and another math at home. However, I never let my son get any gaps in the first place.<br /><br />Mostly, I made sure that he understood the material in EM on the first pass through the spiral (or before that in many cases). Singapore Math was used as a supplement, but I was never able to follow it sequentially. It didn't match up with EM and (unfortunately) EM was the main main focus. <br /><br />I did get him to skip 6th grade EM by working with him on the 6th grade material in the summer after 5th grade. The school gave him a test (EM's version) and he got to go directly to pre-algebra. (There are ways to spin differentiated learning to your advantage. Some schools are sensitive to criticism about not differentiting enough for advanced students, especially when they see an exodus to private schools.)<br /><br />There are really two issues. The first is how to analyze past problems and fill in the gaps, and the second is what you do at home while having to do the Everyday Math schoolwork and homework.<br /><br />Workbooks that are just filled with practice problems might work better than an official curriculum. My son liked it when I boiled everything down to the basics. He didn't like it when I lectured on and on, or if I tried to cover Singapore Math like one would in a regular class.<br /><br />EM is only workable if you never trust the spiral and provide more practice problems at home. This is difficult, becasue EM quickly jumps to new topics. It's not distributed practice. It's partial learning. The other danger of EM is that the school may never cover all of the material. I've talked about my son's 5th grade EM teacher who never got to 35% of the material in the course.<br /><br /><br />When I say that "it's too late", I mean that it's too late unless you get help at home or with a tutor. By 6th grade, it can be difficult even with outside help. You have to get the child on the algebra in 8th grade track. If the school doesn't place him or her on that track, then any sort of STEM career becomes much more difficult, even with tutoring.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-68580436096903837532010-09-30T09:44:31.347-07:002010-09-30T09:44:31.347-07:00What texts are you looking for?
I have found preAl...What texts are you looking for?<br />I have found preAlg and up from the 70s.<br /><br />The children may need grammar and composition instruction also. We found that instruction on outlining, parts of a paragraph and parts of an essay were totally omitted until Gr 9 social studies.lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-62926178767139650822010-09-30T08:18:36.620-07:002010-09-30T08:18:36.620-07:00I've actually been hunting for a good math cur...I've actually been hunting for a good math curriculum for them. There are so many out there, and so many of them look just as bad as what they're doing now.<br /><br />Are kids are bright and ace math at school...but since it's Everyday Math, that means absolutely squat.<br /><br />I would love to find 40-year-old math textbooks somewhere, but can never find any. Obviously Singapore comes highly recommended by lots of people.<br /><br />I've already worked with the younger kid in reading and spelling and have no problem doing after-school home schooling with both in math. (If anyone needs a simple and comprehensive spelling curricula for their grade schooler, you can't go wrong with "All About Spelling"--it teaches all the rules we never learned and makes spelling easy. The boy was regularly score in the 30% range on his spelling tests in January, by May he had brought home two 100% ones.)Auntie Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777983027361603449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-75527456131860217772010-09-30T06:31:33.189-07:002010-09-30T06:31:33.189-07:00I don't think it's helpful to tell people ...I don't think it's helpful to tell people that it's too late and the situation is hopeless. <br /><br />Auntie Ann, if your sister is really worried about her kids, she should get hold of some Singapore Math workbooks and start working through them with the kids. If the kids are bright, it doesn't even take a lot of time.FedUpMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00951858601020687242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-22134427361036198842010-09-29T20:02:55.725-07:002010-09-29T20:02:55.725-07:00I'll repeat what Allison said:
"By 5th g...I'll repeat what Allison said:<br /><br />"By 5th grade, it's too late."<br /><br />This is NOT hyperbole. Just ask the parents of the kids who make it to algebra in 8th grade. They know. They (re)teach at home or use tutors. Just ask many of us here at KTM. We've been through it or are going through it.<br /><br />I find it extremely annoying because K-6 schools will tell parents that what they are doing is better(!) than the old traditional math. They talk about conceptual understanding and decry "drill and kill", but if you look at the details, it's just a cover for lower expectations.<br /><br />Many educators think that reaching algebra (a proper version) in 8th grade is way above normal. On the other hand, they want more kids to be prepared for STEM careers. In an effort to ignore this paradox, educators push hands-on, real world classes as if everything boils down to engagement and motivation. No. It's about having enough math skills to get through differential equations (etal) in college.<br /><br />Since many parents don't catch on, or don't catch on until it's too late, it's hard to get them to deal with the issue. It could be that little Johnnie or Suzie is just not good in math. <br /><br />Curricula like Core-Plus don't get much traction in high school because, by then, many parents have it figured out, at least those with kids still on a proper math track. For K-6, parents are still figuring out what's going on and many don't feel able to counter the silly critical thinking arguments that get thrown at them. <br /><br />There are no "AP"-type tracks in K-6 to show what could be done. Schools could, if they wanted, offer K-6 math tracks that are designed to lead to algebra in 8th grade. However, most schools would claim that curricula like Everyday Math does that. Nobody is stopping you from climbing Mt. Everest. Just look at how many do it each year. Just look at how many go from Everyday Math to algebra in 8th grade. They need to ask what goes on at home or with tutors. They don't dare.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-91776118933542625932010-09-29T18:20:20.529-07:002010-09-29T18:20:20.529-07:00Auntie Ann,
Welcome to KTM! You're absolutely...Auntie Ann,<br /><br />Welcome to KTM! You're absolutely right: the door is being shut for these kids, and almost no parents will be able to determine that until it is too late. By 5th grade, it's too late. If the kids aren't learning their times tables or addition facts, it's over before then.<br /><br />Following what Catherine's been saying, I've come to think that the way to reach college-educated parents and show them what a crisis math ed is for their kids is to show them what the SAT is going to ask of their kids. The problem is it's touchy to tell parents, schools, and teachers, how terrible their textbooks are. Schools tell you that teachers don't want to hear it, and that parents don't want to hear it. But I think mostly it's schools that don't want their teachers and schools to hear it--because what are they going to do about it? Teachers I think, are just shocked to see how badly they've been misled by their textbooks, and if the parents rise up, then what?<br /><br />But parental pressure is working in some places. CassyT works as a consultant helping schools go to Singapore Math, and that basically happens when the parents demand it, and not before. And I hope MSMI can thread this needle of parental outreach, telling parents the truth in a way which empowers them rather than causes them to despair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-14198940066012175782010-09-29T17:23:54.887-07:002010-09-29T17:23:54.887-07:00Our school uses Everyday Math as well (private in ...Our school uses Everyday Math as well (private in Los Angeles), and it's really pathetic. I live with my sister and her kids, I have degrees in Physics and Engineering, she's an MD, and our brother got a PhD in Math.<br /><br />We're a math family. What I hate most about the program is the fear that the doors to the same sort of education and careers that we got are already closing for the kids--and their only TEN and EIGHT!!<br /><br />Spiral, my *&$! I swear I believe that the system was specifically designed to PREVENT kids from attaining mastery. Its philosophy is to touch on everything so lightly, that kids never get a full grasp on anything, then come back to it a year later and do it oh-so lightly again. <br /><br />Last year, our fourth grader brought home a homework that should have been left behind in preschool: look around your house for things shaped like triangles, squares, and circles. I'm not kidding! I guess four years later it was time to spiral back to simple shapes!<br /><br />Blah!Auntie Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777983027361603449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-33382413920687517742010-09-28T10:20:42.831-07:002010-09-28T10:20:42.831-07:00"It isn't the culture of the students. It...<i>"It isn't the culture of the students. It is the culture of the admin who are funding remedial over college prep b/c of lack of funding."</i><br /><br />I'm focusing on the "b/c of lack of funding" part of the quote.<br /><br />I don't think this is correct. Using Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poughkeepsie_City_School_District), I find that the Poukepsie City School District has a student population of about 5,000 and a budget of about $80M. This works out to $16K per student per year.<br /><br />California averages about $10K per student per year, and the richer districts don't get much more (because the budgeting is done at the state level for fairness).<br /><br />With an extra $6K per student (or, alternately an extra $100K per class room of 16 kids), I don't think that the lack of desirable math programs is a lack of funds. The money is just being squandered.<br /><br />If you think that $16K per student is insufficient (and keep in mind that this is equivalent to $320K per classroom of 20 students), what funding level would be sufficient?<br /><br />-Regards,<br /> Mark RouloAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com