tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post760475483183777349..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: Stanley Fish on teaching writing in collegeCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-51066001749380091432012-09-21T18:08:41.918-07:002012-09-21T18:08:41.918-07:00(2) asking students to turn a three-word sentence ...<i>(2) asking students to turn a three-word sentence like “Jane likes cake” into a 100-word sentence without losing control of the basic structure and then explain, word-by-word, clause-by-clause, what they did;"</i><br /><br />I finally started watching that Great Courses dvd on sentences, and this is the sort of thing he spends most of his time on -- basically, logically stacking up the propositions in your sentences.<br /><br />(The first lecture or two was a slog, but then it started rolling. I'm enjoying it. I loved the sections where he took extremely famous or well-crafted sentences and expressed the same propositions in alternate ways and it became so apparent how *right* great writing could be over just plain competent, get-your-point-across writing.)<br />TerriWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200629750466604443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-60399417271583771102012-09-21T06:54:07.855-07:002012-09-21T06:54:07.855-07:00My kid just started kindergarten at our local Cath...My kid just started kindergarten at our local Catholic school. It's pretty traditional. They use phonics for reading, with the goal of fluency, and my kid's class also uses a sight word list. At least at the K level, they do a "writing workshop" thing that has them writing grammatically correct sentences daily. (It's not clear how much their peers get to correct each others' writing, nor that the workshop approach continues in higher grades. My impression is that it does not.) <br /><br />The school uses a non-constructivist math curriculum, and it permits above-grade-level learners to accelerate within it. This will be important for my boy, and is one of the main reasons he's at this school.<br /><br />They're also having the kindergartners recite the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer daily, so they apparently find some value in memorization. :-)jtidwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448396303471931639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-31686848094812938122012-09-21T04:36:43.153-07:002012-09-21T04:36:43.153-07:00oh my gosh - you are brave!
you have to tell us h...<i>oh my gosh - you are brave!<br /><br />you have to tell us how it goes!</i><br /><br />How'd it go? Well, the first batch of sentences are in (juniors and seniors exclusively) and I'm alternately impressed and horrified. A couple took the assignment as a joke and so I have sentences about how Jane could potentially spontaneously combust, but then I also have a couple of well-thought out sentences examining Jane's love for sweets and how cake hold a special place in her heart. <br /><br />Grammatically they're also a mixed bag, with some horrible comma splices and at least one student who was apparently recently introduced to the idea of the semi-colon. <br /><br />Today we review them and today is also the day I start them on the rudimentary structure of Kerrigan's Writing to the Point, so we'll see how this goes.MagisterGreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12447106786489253060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-27257945957947946332012-09-20T18:52:32.243-07:002012-09-20T18:52:32.243-07:00Anonymous - thanks so much for the reference.
I&#...Anonymous - thanks so much for the reference.<br /><br />I'm about halfway through Fish's book -- but hadn't heard about the article --- Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-51912604190902398222012-09-20T18:51:52.828-07:002012-09-20T18:51:52.828-07:00I have my next in-class assignment!
oh my gosh - ...<i>I have my next in-class assignment!</i><br /><br />oh my gosh - you are brave!<br /><br />you have to tell us how it goes!Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-82704992326678246112012-09-20T18:22:28.196-07:002012-09-20T18:22:28.196-07:00Those who are inclined to believe that Stanley Fis...Those who are inclined to believe that Stanley Fish has something new to say on teaching composition might enjoy Joseph Epstein's review of Fish's book<br />"On How to Write a Sentence and How to Read One". Epstein's essay is titled "Heavy Sentences", and appeared in The New Criterion, June 2011 issue. It's no longer freely available from newcriterion.com, but perhaps your public library has it in its electronic archive of periodicals.<br /><br />http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/Heavy-sentences-7053Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-65124529607804330532012-09-20T16:16:42.718-07:002012-09-20T16:16:42.718-07:00I took a trip down memory lane last year when my o...I took a trip down memory lane last year when my old Catholic elementary school celebrated its 60th anniversary. It's hard to know how the curriculum has changed (I suspect quite a bit), but the students still rise when a teacher enters the room and they still sit in rows!<br /><br />http://costofcollege.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/our-lady-of-the-valley-school/Gracehttp://costofcollege.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-34243936093272801902012-09-20T15:40:49.338-07:002012-09-20T15:40:49.338-07:00Today's Catholic schools are nothing like the ...Today's Catholic schools are nothing like the one's of old. My daughter attended Catholic school from preschool until the middle of 4th grade. Up through the beginning of 3rd grade, I was very happy with all of it. We even had our token nun (she wore pantsuits, no habit unfortunately). <br /><br />I have to say, writing was one of the weak points of the whole curriculum at that school though. In 1st and 2nd grade, it was all age/grade appropriate. In 3rd grade, I started worrying. It seemed all touchy-feely and not very rigorous. In 4th grade, the kids were supposed to do a series of book reports, 6 or 7 of them, I think, each one a different genre. However, not one of them was a real book report. Instead they were "projects." One was a poster, another was a game based on the book, another the dreaded shoe-box diorama... Not one blessed report! <br /><br />That's one of the reasons we pulled our daughter out of the school and began homeschooling her. Now she has to actually write book reports. <br /><br />I wouldn't have minded the "projects" so much, if the students had done the reports first, and then for the final report they could choose to do one of the "projects" if they wanted. Unfortunately, the rest of the Catholic school curriculum was similarly "fuzzy."Laura in AZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-23684419592678439852012-09-19T14:02:56.466-07:002012-09-19T14:02:56.466-07:00I see the appeal of a classical curriculum as much...I see the appeal of a classical curriculum as much as anyone, but I was also good friends with a couple of people in high school who were absolutely traumatized by their experiences in Catholic school (both were gay). From an educational perspective, though, there's a lot to be said for drill-and-kill. Anyone who can get a class full of kids to the point where they all recognize that a clause can start with a pronoun, not make sense out of context, and STILL be a sentence is a hero in my book;) Whether or not most Catholic schools are still doing that... I don't know. But the few kids from Catholic schools that I've tutored haven't shown the kinds of deficiencies that I regular see in other private-school kids.SATVerbalTutor.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14362826669168491773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-969710968556593862012-09-19T12:06:01.432-07:002012-09-19T12:06:01.432-07:00Kathy,
I have Warriners Grammar plus the teacher&...Kathy,<br /><br />I have Warriners Grammar plus the teacher's edition if you want it. I don't know if your kids still need it, but my youngest is a senior now so I am pretty much done.<br /><br />SusanSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-85197744278535101932012-09-19T12:00:58.936-07:002012-09-19T12:00:58.936-07:00I fear that Catholic schools are a shadow of their...I fear that Catholic schools are a shadow of their former selves. Eight years ago, I entered a program at a Catholic college that focused on providing second career teaching credentials to students who already had a college degree. Participants were supposed to commit to teaching at Catholic schools if possible. The program was radically constructivist; explicit teaching of phonics and grammar was demonized and we were immersed in the world of whole language reading and Lucy Caulkins writer's workshop. I did what was required to obtain the credentials and state license and then fled to teach at a Core Knowledge/classical charter school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-32824877738625611542012-09-19T10:20:21.079-07:002012-09-19T10:20:21.079-07:00I attended Catholic schools from 2nd grade through...I attended Catholic schools from 2nd grade through 12th, and went to a Jesuit college. I think most Catholic schools now are very different from my experience and really not too different from the "publics" (as we used to call them). I had my share of very strict nuns. Some of the discipline was cruel, looking back from today's perspective, but I had a very traditional education with few extras (no fancy playground, no band, limited extracurriculars in K-8, etc). I have tried to find many of the textbooks I used, including Warriners Grammar and Lennes Arithmetic to teach my kids. While the schools were very strict, many of the nuns were fantastic teachers and great role models for a girl interested in intellectual things. In fact, my old elementary school is featured in a book "Catholic Schools Then and Now" (or something close) which Catherine talked about a few years ago.kathyiggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891567675671679604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-86835999058934870402012-09-19T09:57:43.194-07:002012-09-19T09:57:43.194-07:00I doubt that today's Catholic schools are much...I doubt that today's Catholic schools are much like the one my DH attended or the ones my friends attended, particularly at the k-8 level. The nuns that were teaching my generation typically entered the Mother House of their order, directly from HS, and the Mother House gave them their teaching instruction - which has always sounded much like the Normal School programs which a number of my ES teachers attended. In both cases, that meant lots of very practical training in the content areas, how to teach the content and in classroom management - but no pie-in-the-sky theories, edubabble and airy-fairy nonsense. Now the nuns are gone and the teachers are likely to have come from the same ed schools, whether Catholic or otherwise, as their public school counterparts - very progressive, constructivist, multi-culti and social justice oriented and not into the nitty-gritty of managing a classroom and making sure kids learn the basics. It's a pity.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-12321734747088486502012-09-19T05:40:21.342-07:002012-09-19T05:40:21.342-07:00From the article:
" (2) asking students to tu...From the article:<br />" (2) asking students to turn a three-word sentence like “Jane likes cake” into a 100-word sentence without losing control of the basic structure and then explain, word-by-word, clause-by-clause, what they did;"<br /><br />I have my next in-class assignment!MagisterGreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12447106786489253060noreply@blogger.com