tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post8530336014641801405..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: palisadesk on full inclusionCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-81203665361856943562012-07-07T04:42:18.171-07:002012-07-07T04:42:18.171-07:00"it is quite possible that many in your distr..."it is quite possible that many in your district (and certainly in some others I know of) are totally gung-ho on differentiation and inclusion. There are "true believers" out there."<br /><br />"Quite possible"?<br /><br />You still don't believe it? Full inclusion and differentiated instruction are not driven by cost, parents, or laws. They came from the hearts and minds of K-8 educators. Our high school separates kids and they still have the same cost drivers, parents, and laws.<br /><br />There may be lots of differences of opinion among teachers, but that's not what I see as a parent. Are parents supposed to climb on board one bus or another in the internal battles between teachers and administrators?SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-58256189143329660582012-07-06T20:21:14.037-07:002012-07-06T20:21:14.037-07:00"I certainly hope all students would be entit..."I certainly hope all students would be entitled to FAPE. It would be astonishing to me if they were not:("<br /><br />They aren't. The court cases have been pretty clear about this for non-SPED kids. See for example:<br />http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2009/11/09/can-schools-be-sued-for-failure-to-educate/<br /><br />The key quote from Peter W. vs. SFUSD (1976):<br />"Unlike the activity of the highway or the marketplace, classroom methodology affords no readily acceptable standards of care, or cause, or injury."ChemProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720659176087492651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-74572452689943798762012-07-06T14:18:56.462-07:002012-07-06T14:18:56.462-07:00My son will be attending a new rigorous charter in...My son will be attending a new rigorous charter in the DC area next year. Already there are some who say this school will be too rigorous which will not meet the needs of every student. All I know is that I am prepared to homeschool again if the school ever caves into the demands of those who want to dumb down education. I am all for ability grouping since I think differentiation is virtually impossible.ClassicsMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14290988786084024360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-71743878218788865772012-07-06T13:14:34.539-07:002012-07-06T13:14:34.539-07:00Thanks, P, for the info - I hoped that was the usu...Thanks, P, for the info - I hoped that was the usual practice. I do realize, however, that /leveled/ability-grouped ES classes, and probably many MS ones, are going the way of the dinosaurs. Perhaps full inclusion is driving some of that; I could see terrific parent pressure to get their kids into the "top" class, and the schools don't want to deal with it - everyone really has the same academic needs, right?<br /><br />Even special-purpose HS programs are under attack; I recently read that Fairfax County, VA's acclaimed Thomas Jefferson math/science magnet HS has broken under years of pressure and re-done its admission criteria, such that a third of incoming freshmen now require math remediation!(can't do the regular freshman-magnet-level class)<br /><br />I am amazed that my older kids' old HS, also in the DC area, still has honors prereqs for AP classes; first do the top HS class, then the real-college-level class - so the latter really are elite-college level.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-15799824536650252732012-07-06T11:21:18.330-07:002012-07-06T11:21:18.330-07:00To answer momof4, my understanding is that parents...To answer momof4, my understanding is that parents have a right to the "default" placement (if that's the right term), but not to programs, tracks or specialized schools with specific entry criteria. <br /><br />We don't have any elementary honors programs that I know of (there are elementary IB programs, though -- I believe they are closed to those outside the catchment area of the schools involved, because they are quite popular). Most of the high schools in my immediate area, which serve exclusively low-SES and minority kids, have no honors or AP track in ninth grade, though I believe there are some high schools in the wealthy part of the district that have these. So parents can request, and get, placement in the regular academic,pre-college track in ninth grade for their SPED kid.<br /><br />They will be <i>strongly </i>advised against this if their child has documented special needs, poor grades, chronic absenteeism, and so forth. Many parents however, even those of children with intellectual disabilities, <i>insist</i> on enrolling their child at this level in 9th grade, even when the child has a snowball's chance in H--- of surviving. I know of a couple of cases in my own school this year. <br /><br />However, higher level courses, and courses in specialized programs (like IB, AP, science magnet programs, etc.) have pre-requisites that must be met, so students who cannot demonstrate the required proficiency or competence are not admitted. The same criteria are applied, whether a would-be applicant is SPED or not, so discrimination is not an issue. The more advanced courses in grades 10, 11 and 12 require a certain level of achievement in ninth grade or before. Somtimes there are entry exams.<br /><br />This doesn't stop some parents from trying to get their child into an honors or gifted program however. I well remember a parent whose son was diagnosed with mild cognitive delay (formerly called EMR) who insisted her son was actually gifted, and bored, and belonged in the gifted program. She filed some kind of lawsuit and I never knew all the details, but she failed to get her way -- there was no evidence of this "giftedness" though the argument could be made that for cultural or other reasons the low-IQ result was erroneous. She turned down a placement in an intellectual disability class. I heard later that the boy dropped out of high school without completing ninth grade.<br /><br /><i>In the case of students who should be spec ed but the parents have refused testing or classification, can they also force honors-level placement?</i><br /><br />The non-classified (but should-have-been-classified) kids are treated like any other kid -- they can only be in an honors program if they meet the criteria. In some cases (such as non-verbal students with autism using "facilitated communication") I suspect the achievement demonstrated is not that of the student, but those things are difficult to prove. So in general, no, honors programs are for those who qualify for them.palisadeskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13700503881038569921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-73889636255615695162012-07-06T11:06:30.059-07:002012-07-06T11:06:30.059-07:00I certainly hope all students would be entitled to...I certainly hope all students would be entitled to FAPE. It would be astonishing to me if they were not:(ClassicsMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14290988786084024360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-58602313859019955122012-07-06T10:12:57.688-07:002012-07-06T10:12:57.688-07:00I do not believe that a "Free Appropriate Pub...I do not believe that a "Free Appropriate Public Education" is a right for non-disabled students.<br /><br />The "free" part *is* a right for all students.<br /><br />The whole thing, though, is a 504 issue, and this only applies to disabled students.<br /><br />Note that *if* everyone had a right to an "appropriate" public education a lot of the poorly performing schools would probably be sued on a regular basis. Maybe a lot of the non-poorly performing schools, too.<br /><br />-Mark RouloAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-38940751717274761542012-07-06T09:53:33.540-07:002012-07-06T09:53:33.540-07:00In the very early 90s, an acquaintance described t...In the very early 90s, an acquaintance described the situation in the kindergarten classroom of a first-year teacher, whom she had mentored during the new grad's previous year's practice teaching. One unsocialized 6yo had her entire classroom terrorized. She hit, kicked, bit, threw books and chairs and attacked other kids with scissors (all documented many times) and was physically large enough that 3 adults were required to remove her from the classroom during her frequent "tantrums". She was always returned, however, and her mother refused to allow spec ed testing/alternative placement because an older sibling had been classified, which she asserted was racist. A system in which this sort of thing is allowed to happen (even once)is one in which the inmates are running the asylum. It takes far too long and costs far too much to move kids to more appropriate placements. There are far too many protections for the "disabled" and far too few for their classmates. In my view, the legal system has manipulated IDEA far beyond the original intent and created a class of students/people whose personal rights are elevated far beyond those of the students/people around them.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-32178815705007564972012-07-06T09:35:18.223-07:002012-07-06T09:35:18.223-07:00I recently was speaking to a elementary teacher wh...I recently was speaking to a elementary teacher who told me of students who attack other students or who expose and touch themselves in the classroom on a regular basis. I was astonished that these kids cannot be put into separate classrooms since are not the other students entitled to FAPE as well??? I would think that FAPE would include being safe in the classroom and not being exposed to sexual behavior. She did say that the district did call CYS services many times on the student with alarming behavior but that CYS did nothing in essence. She said that these students cannot be deprived of an education but in essence, in my opinion, these students are depriving other students of FAPE.ClassicsMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14290988786084024360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-51764550550777470122012-07-06T06:31:05.738-07:002012-07-06T06:31:05.738-07:00If I understand you correctly, your experience has...If I understand you correctly, your experience has been that a classified spec ed student essentially must be placed in the class the parents "request" (demand). If there are ES-MS honors levels, can the parent force placement into these, also? In HS honors/AP? (If so, that would seem to be a serious perversion of the original intent of IDEA - as is full inclusion, in many cases)<br /><br />In the case of students who should be spec ed but the parents have refused testing or classification, can they also force honors-level placement?momof4noreply@blogger.com