tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post8753938281516570664..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: warm/strictCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-36329471913820586372010-04-19T18:24:46.164-07:002010-04-19T18:24:46.164-07:00fyi: The Street Stops Here is supposed to be wonde...fyi: The Street Stops Here is supposed to be wonderful. <br /><br />Another part of my great unread.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-23306595134176473432010-04-19T18:24:09.447-07:002010-04-19T18:24:09.447-07:00Bostonian - thanks!
From what I've seen (whic...Bostonian - thanks!<br /><br />From what I've seen (which is limited, of course) a good Catholic school is warm/strict almost by definition.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-41896073678569884732010-04-19T18:22:33.625-07:002010-04-19T18:22:33.625-07:00btw, as to "deliberate practice" and the...btw, as to "deliberate practice" and the gifted...I've been reading about the basal ganglia and associative learning AND skill learning (both cognitive skills like math) and physical skills like riding a bike.<br /><br />"Basal ganglia" learning is completely different from semantic learning, i.e. learning or memorizing facts, events, people, etc.<br /><br />I'm not quite sure what 'gifted' would mean with basal ganglia learning ---Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-28538827999032047022010-04-19T18:19:59.660-07:002010-04-19T18:19:59.660-07:00Instead, I find myself being too nice to my studen...<i>Instead, I find myself being too nice to my students, at the expense of management.</i><br /><br />That's a big problem for me with other people's children.<br /><br />I'm easily warm/strict with my own kids; it makes sense.<br /><br />But with other people's children I err on the side of being too nice.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-37858312240914285142010-04-19T18:18:52.961-07:002010-04-19T18:18:52.961-07:00Now that I've reminded myself of this, I'm...Now that I've reminded myself of this, I'm going to have guilt.<br /><br />I need to be doing SOMETHING with Andrew.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-30931416777914932372010-04-19T18:18:30.878-07:002010-04-19T18:18:30.878-07:00Interesting . . . so would it be something like th...<i>Interesting . . . so would it be something like the child's questions, in the hands of a well trained teacher, function to help target where instruction is needed?</i><br /><br />Sorry - I'm behind reading (lots going on around here) -- that's what I understood the Koegels to be saying.<br /><br />The fact that the child had asked the question meant he was specifically **ready** to learn that particular content. Not just motivated, but ready.<br /><br />I wish I could remember the examples he gave.<br /><br />I know I wrote about it at the time; I'll have to see if I can track down some of those things.<br /><br />Lynn's pilot study was quite miraculous. She taught 4 very autistic little children to ask questions --- and all four basically normalized. They lost their autistic symptoms and were fully mainstreamed, on grade level, and had friends.<br /><br />For years I tried to persuade our various teacher to stop asking the kids questions and teach THEM to ask questions but I never prevailed -- and I haven't managed to do it myself.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35765361055914627322010-04-19T08:58:22.506-07:002010-04-19T08:58:22.506-07:00City Journal has posted online a 1996 article The ...City Journal has posted online a 1996 article <a href="http://www.city-journal.org/html/6_3_a2.html" rel="nofollow">The Invisible Miracle of Catholic Schools</a> that fits with the "warm/strict" theme.Bostoniannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-66910795591944670342010-04-19T05:59:19.512-07:002010-04-19T05:59:19.512-07:00The key, in terms of interacting with students, is...The key, in terms of interacting with students, is decisiveness.<br /><br />Notice your body language--if you are being decisive, you will be standing straight, shoulders back, arms at your sides (it can help, as you are getting comfortable with this, to put your hands behind your back if you are giving an instruction), calm voice, making eye contact. <br /><br />Also, (and this is straight from Fred Jones's Tools for Teaching, which I would highly recommend checking out), discipline comes first. No matter what you want to get to (helping another student, getting through your material for the day), if any student isn't sitting up reasonably straight and paying attention or working when they are supposed to, you need to slow everything down and address it (not through nagging, bribing, guilting, yelling, or punishment--by looking them straight in the eye and indicating that the whole class is now waiting for them). You also need back-up measures for students for whom that is not enough, but that's more detail than I can fit in here (again, all from Fred Jones--definitely check it out).<br /><br />Also, expect to make mistakes, and calm yourself down if you feel yourself getting stressed from making mistakes. Mistakes are part of learning any skill, and this is a skill.<br /><br />And as you get more comfortable with it, you will increasingly be able to add in more warmth.Laura M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-4542214441848206172010-04-18T18:46:48.025-07:002010-04-18T18:46:48.025-07:00Here's an example, Michelle, although since I ...Here's an example, Michelle, although since I don't know what level you teach it may or may not help. In college, a big issue is late work. On my first day, I tell them I do not have to take late work, and lay out the penalty if I choose to accept late work due to extraordinary circumstances. This gives me a little wiggle room, and when (inevitably) someone forgets their homework in a few weeks, I can say "well, this time I'll take it by noon", I am being nice and they are appreciative. If I don't have a policy, then they expect me to take anything whenever, and they don't appreciate it when I do.<br /><br />The key I've found is to have clear policies that don't put you in the position of breaking your own rules. If you know you'll take late work, have a late policy where they lose some % per day late. If attendance is a problem, set a specific policy including tardiness. <br /><br />I'm sure the K-12 folks will have more specific things to say.ChemProfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-27927478138781976662010-04-18T18:30:34.780-07:002010-04-18T18:30:34.780-07:00As a first year teacher, I have not yet found how ...As a first year teacher, I have not yet found how to effectively balance being caring and strict. Instead, I find myself being too nice to my students, at the expense of management. Those who are experienced teachers, can you give some specific examples of how you balance these two traits to effectively manage your classroom?Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463297422227045146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-92182276734007332162010-04-18T15:33:01.034-07:002010-04-18T15:33:01.034-07:00I don't think that this problem is any more sy...<i>I don't think that this problem is any more systematic with DI than with other systems</i><br /><br />I think it is different with DI than with other systems--progressivism can prevent you from experiencing certain kinds of failures by omitting to challenge you, and/or while also exposing you to too much failure too soon.<br /><br />DI, I think, prevents you from failure by making sure you succeed and, if you are behind in skills, are challenged--which in general, is obviously a good thing, but I'm wondering if there is a danger of it exposing you to slightly too much success too soon.<br /><br /><i>With DI, you may always be working below your ZPD.</i> Yes in some cases, while others will actually be succeeding in working above their ZPD. <br /><br /><i>DI has one advantage in that it includes tracking and has the teacher spending time with all the groups </i><br /><br />Definitely an advantage that must be matched for a competing public school program to be taken seriously.Laura M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-74261314964394682122010-04-18T11:07:46.912-07:002010-04-18T11:07:46.912-07:00momof4: at risk also includes limited english prof...momof4: at risk also includes limited english proficiency. The term is used by teachers to include learning disability and special education students also.<br /><br />ime, no at-risk child needs to actually be in the classroom for opportunity to be restricted ..the district bigwigs feel no obligation to teach anyone beyond what an at-risk child could learn and actually prohibits certain topics from being taught. If you look at Scarsdale's state test numbers, you'll notice that they are unable to get everyone to '4' level, despite the wealth and despite the tutoring. I'm conjecturing that the '3's that aren't sped and LD are in classrooms that omit the mat'l necessary to take them to the '4' level. It's a very common story even up here in the Hudson Valley. The staff does not want to let any child 'get ahead' on the public dime.lgmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-74824931426877545992010-04-18T10:33:45.454-07:002010-04-18T10:33:45.454-07:00I don't think that this problem is any more sy...I don't think that this problem is any more systematic with DI than with other systems. In reform math, you never have anything challenging. In progressive education, you can avoid difficult material unless you have an outstanding teacher who pushes all the students. With DI, you may always be working below your ZPD. However, DI has one advantage in that it includes tracking and has the teacher spending time with all the groups (as opposed to most public schools, where often the top reading group or math group is left alone as long as they don't cause trouble).ChemProfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-17436049823951311722010-04-18T05:31:14.215-07:002010-04-18T05:31:14.215-07:00Failing is good. Failing before you get to college...<i>Failing is good. Failing before you get to college is better. Failing and then succeeding after failure is a real win. Never failing until you're about to fail to graduate from college: not so good.</i><br /><br />Again, this is my concern w/DI, above a certain threshold.Laura M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-87504526765295003022010-04-17T14:55:23.729-07:002010-04-17T14:55:23.729-07:00Was I your student? :) That describes my college e...Was I your student? :) That describes my college experience quite well. Even when I tried to create deliberative practice (by doing Schaum's Outlines or all the unassigned problems in a book), the leap from there to what I was being asked to do was too big. I was constantly voicing "*show me* what you want." but it was too late by then.<br /><br />I worry about that aspect for the high achievers. The progressive-open-ended-create-my-own-questions curriculum is a way to avoid failure.<br /><br />Failing is good. Failing before you get to college is better. Failing and then succeeding after failure is a real win. Never failing until you're about to fail to graduate from college: not so good.Allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01760659382790453648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-16630447549315062062010-04-17T10:16:15.782-07:002010-04-17T10:16:15.782-07:00"I would go farther and say gifted children a..."I would go farther and say gifted children are particularly hamstrung at designing effective deliberate practice, because the places and times they'd have learned to practice *at all* are so limited."<br /><br />Allison definitely has a point. I had a research student a couple of years ago who was an extraordinarily bright student. We had a good summer, but the data turned out to be tricky to analyze. I found she had NO capacity for frustration. The minute she got frustrated, she would shut down. She had never not gotten something immediately. This is, I think, what teachers try to simulate when they talk about having students struggle with the material. The ability to deal with frustration is good, but if a student is constantly frustrated, that doesn't work either.<br /><br />There is no way, however, that this student could have come up with her own deliberative practice. In an environment that didn't require mastery, if she didn't get it immediately, she just went on to something she did get. She was a product of progressive education up to age 13, and a really open environment didn't help her develop those skills.ChemProfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-56351998032172924862010-04-17T10:01:01.603-07:002010-04-17T10:01:01.603-07:00Catherine--good progressive education has it's...Catherine--good progressive education has it's own efficiencies (certainly compared to local public schools). Montessori (progressive in classroom design, moving away from Latin/Greek studies, recognizing intellectual capabilities of children that were "too young for school" in her day) teaches skills right the first time and allows children to practice a skill (with control of error to help practice be relatively perfect) as much or as little as they need to achieve mastery without slowing down or being slowed down by classmates so less class time is wasted for each child. It is efficient in the sense that it gives children the opportunity to build skills and vocabulary and other knowledge they will need for further study later (names of geometric solids, names for parts of plants and animals, names of continents). It is efficient in the sense of instilling good habits: self-control, respect for others and the environment, developing longer periods of concentration on work, correcting errors and working to achieve mastery (as opposed to expecting to get it right the first time or I'm just not good at x). The multi-age classrooms mean children don't get moved on based on age without the opportunity to master the curriculum. It is efficient in that children don't lose skills while waiting for others to catch up.<br /><br />The short cut lies in using the prepared environment, materials with control of error, and Montessori's carefully designed curriculum. You don't reinvent the wheel--you follow the script of three-period lessons and guiding children through the sequence of materials.<br /><br />Whether this is more efficient than good traditional education, I don't know. But it is a great deal more efficient than the constructivist nonsense at the local public schools. I don't consider the constructivists progressive--I think they are cargo-cultists who are trying to do progressive education without understanding why it works (teachers with content knowledge, guiding children through content rich curriculum with individual/ability grouped direct instruction and practice to mastery).Karen Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075997477474697121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-48531486022335035662010-04-17T07:23:44.334-07:002010-04-17T07:23:44.334-07:00lgm: I don't think that Scarsdale is putting t...lgm: I don't think that Scarsdale is putting that much focus on at-risk kids because I don't think there are many. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the schools don't participate in the FARM program because there is no need - you have to be pretty affluent to live there. Catherine undoubtedly is better informed, but that's my impression of the place.momof4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-14985310649076079702010-04-17T04:57:58.653-07:002010-04-17T04:57:58.653-07:00When you base your teaching on the child's que...<i>When you base your teaching on the child's questions instead of the teacher's questions.... I can imagine that saving time that would otherwise be spent building background knowledge and/or motoring him through content he isn't currently motivated to learn. </i><br /><br />Interesting . . . so would it be something like the child's questions, in the hands of a well trained teacher, function to help target where instruction is needed?<br /><br />This is one of the reasons I'm thinking a head teacher/assistant teacher model would be helpful, with the head teacher floating through more than one class.<br /><br /><i>since that innate skill or ability can get them extremely far before they aren't the head of the pack, they have no idea what to do when they *do* need to practice something.</i><br /><br />I've thought a lot about this, too. It's my concern for letting even unusually bright and focused kids guide too much of their instruction. On the other hand, I worry that using DI past a certain threshold fails to prepare kids for starting, very gradually, to take over responsibility for learning.Laura M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-47983902450661552592010-04-17T00:38:06.934-07:002010-04-17T00:38:06.934-07:00--I still haven't delved into Ericsson's w...--I still haven't delved into Ericsson's work as much as I'd like, but given what I know of it, I don't believe a middle school child, no matter how gifted, can create a regimen of deliberate practice for himself.<br /><br /><br />I would go farther and say gifted children are particularly hamstrung at designing effective deliberate practice, because the places and times they'd have learned to practice *at all* are so limited.<br /><br />Gifted kids get by without practice in most academic settings; if they are gifted in music or sports, they probably focus on the talent they are best at or like best. In all cases, they see something once, maybe twice, and can put it in place. That analysis and follow through is not practice, and since that innate skill or ability can get them extremely far before they aren't the head of the pack, they have no idea what to do when they *do* need to practice something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-2176273514904571852010-04-17T00:32:05.837-07:002010-04-17T00:32:05.837-07:00--Students learn to analyze others' arguments....--Students learn to analyze others' arguments. They can argue both sides of an argument. Discussion and dissent are encouraged. Emphasis is placed upon understanding facts in context, rather than upon learning only what's on the state tests.<br /><br />This is not progressive. It's the defn of a liberal arts education. If you are equating "traditional" to "teaches to the test", I thought we had an older tradition than that--by several hundred years.<br /><br />And it doesn't describe a math course in any detail. What does a progressive math course look like? I know what a progressive elementary math course looks like--it's highly exploratory. And that's fine for k-3. But I'm asking about grades 6-12.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-19804222622791114912010-04-16T20:36:01.581-07:002010-04-16T20:36:01.581-07:00I think the progressive model, when well implement...<i>I think the progressive model, when well implemented, is great for many gifted kids. These are kids who come into the classroom with a great deal of knowledge about the world.</i><br /><br />That seems like an important distinction to me. One way of reading Lemov's book is that those teachers are absolutely STUFFING 'background knowledge' into their students. I use the word 'stuffing' positively, just to be clear.<br /><br />However, a gifted child who is constantly seeking and soaking in knowledge comes to class with a richly furnished mind.<br /><br />I want to add that Lemov's teachers are constantly pushing toward & engaging their students in critical thinking. His book illustrates the unity of critical thinking and knowledge.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-78912945300874156632010-04-16T20:27:32.991-07:002010-04-16T20:27:32.991-07:00You could teach middle schoolers how to make their...<i>You could teach middle schoolers how to make their own flashcards. You could teach them how to quiz themselves on information they need to learn. You could teach them how to create their own mnemonic strategies.</i><br /><br />Based in Ericsson's work on deliberate practice and expertise, I would guess that this wouldn't be the best possible approach. <br /><br />"Deliberate practice" is more than repetition.... and Ericsson found that experts have coaches or trainers or teachers who create a program of deliberate practice for them and give them feedback as they do it. They don't create their own practice routines.<br /><br />Our tennis instructor always tells us: 'Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.' That's what Ericsson found. A novice can't design a program of perfect practice.<br /><br />I still haven't delved into Ericsson's work as much as I'd like, but given what I know of it, I don't believe a middle school child, no matter how gifted, can create a regimen of deliberate practice for himself.<br /><br />Also, I'm thinking it wouldn't be a good use of his time to be making his own flash cards, etc. ----<br /><br />That's something I was wondering about today. I don't reject the idea that there are terrific progressive schools--but I wonder whether a progressive school can ever teach as efficiently as a superb traditional school -- ?<br /><br />Using time well is a running theme throughout Teach Like a Champion. If the teachers in the book can shave just a few seconds off of a routine, they do it. <br /><br />Are there 'shortcuts' progressive education takes (or can take) that would make it as efficient as direct instruction?<br /><br />I can think of one possible source of efficiency, which I learned from Bob & Lynn Koegel at UCSB. Bob & Lynn are the John Dewey of applied behavior analysis; their approach to teaching autistic kids is 'student-centered.' The teacher follows the child around and builds a lesson into whatever the child is doing. (You have to be REALLY good to do this well.)<br /><br />Lynn also worked miracles with autistic kids not by asking them questions, as direct instruction methods do, but by teaching the autistic child to ask questions. This is painstaking work, because severely autistic children don't ask questions. They use their language to "request and protest." They ask for stuff & say no to stuff. <br /><br />Bob said that the reason teaching autistic kids to ask questions is so effective is that when the child asks a question, that signals he is prepared to learn that particular piece of information or knowledge at that time. The child's questions are the measure or indicator of where his prior knowledge is - and of his motivation.<br /><br />When you base your teaching on the child's questions instead of the teacher's questions.... I can imagine that saving time that would otherwise be spent building background knowledge and/or motoring him through content he isn't currently motivated to learn. <br /><br />(Obviously, the Teach Like a Champion teachers have a gazillion techniques for producing motivation. But that's not typical.)<br /><br />This is vague, I know, but I think the question is real. <br /><br />Can good progressive education be as efficient as good traditional education? And, if it can, does it have to do with a very skilled teacher following the child's lead?Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-16296874859254972742010-04-16T20:26:58.822-07:002010-04-16T20:26:58.822-07:00I would consider Phillips Exeter Academy to be exc...I would consider Phillips Exeter Academy to be excellent. Their approach to math is distinctive, and not traditional. http://www.exeter.edu/academics/84_801.aspx<br /><br />At Exeter, students learn math by working problems, in a group. There is more information available at the link.<br /><br />Excellence? The students work. They must pay attention to the subject at hand. Instruction follows the class's interests, and can detour into interesting topics. The class structure is not defined by state tests. Class time is not spent upon test prep. <br /><br />Students learn to analyze others' arguments. They can argue both sides of an argument. Discussion and dissent are encouraged. Emphasis is placed upon understanding facts in context, rather than upon learning only what's on the state tests.<br /><br />To me, the trouble in discussing progressive pedagogy is that so often, it's used as an excuse for poor practices. If done well, it calls for more work on the teacher's part, not less. In theory, I suppose one could structure a larger class project around the effects of the Icelandic volcano, studying its effects on Europe, and learning about chemistry, geography, and culture. In practice, the teacher would need to know vulcanology, the history, culture, geography and economic underpinnings of modern Europe in depth. If done well, it would <b>not</b> be, 10 minutes to read a short article in class, 10 minutes to discuss the article in groups, 10 minutes for each group to report to the whole, and 20 minutes for the group to create collages to express the day's themes.Cranberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-81274474997155686742010-04-16T20:05:43.045-07:002010-04-16T20:05:43.045-07:00I've been told the same estimate of Scarsdale ...I've been told the same estimate of Scarsdale kids being tutored.<br /><br />In fact - and I know I've posted this in comments before - when we went for an interview at Hackley, a private school nearby, the interviewer said she herself had been a tutor for Scarsdale kids. She said Scarsdale keeps lists of tutors to refer parents to.<br /><br />Long lists, it sounded like.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.com