tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post9186788042684718964..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: David Mulroy on 'critical thinking' in the late Middle Ages & 'looking for bias'Catherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-6155083876315297362012-07-08T07:05:58.784-07:002012-07-08T07:05:58.784-07:00So, don't assume that the students are stupid....<i>So, don't assume that the students are stupid. These habits of mind have been taught. This is what results from a refusal to teach content and a desire to encourage "creativity."</i><br /><br />RIGHT!!!!<br /><br />That's what I see.<br /><br />My students aren't stupid ***at all*** ---- <br /><br />Their thinking isn't a problem. They're logical, they offer evidence for opinions during discussion, a lot of them come up with interesting insights and observations about the stories we read... <br /><br />They need to become better readers and writers: reading and writing, not thinking per se, is the issue.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-74929721469156270682012-07-08T06:37:39.697-07:002012-07-08T06:37:39.697-07:00Kids are now being taught, from school entry
We h...<i>Kids are now being taught, from school entry</i><br /><br />We have the exact opposite. <br /><br />I know I've told the story about teachers in middle school drawing bell curves on the blackboard, telling kids that the hump was a "C" and that's what they were.<br /><br />One of the P.E. teachers told the boys (in 5th grade): "You all want to be athletes, but you aren't good enough" (or words to that effect).<br /><br />Ed and I used to say the motto of the middle school should be: Your child. Not the little genius you think he is.<br /><br />I'm not sure the self-esteem movement is still present in public schools (unless my district is different). <br /><br />My sense is that "character education" replaced "self-esteem." <br /><br />Character education has a negative slant on the nature of the child, at least in my experience.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-29832112738402132412012-07-07T08:43:34.722-07:002012-07-07T08:43:34.722-07:00Kids are now being taught, from school entry (and ...<i>Kids are now being taught, from school entry (and often prior to that, at home) that they are intrinsically important; the rush to praise every piece of their "academic" output, however, sloppy, incomplete, incorrect and incoherent it might be, for fear of damaging their precious self-esteem.</i><br /><br />We might be an outlier, but I see a big change in this attitude over the last few years. I think it began with our curriculum people, or some of them, getting religion with Hattie's "Visible Learning," which has a lot to say about the importance of accurate, descriptive feedback.<br /><br />One year a focus for all our PLC's was descriptive feedback -- what it is, when and how to provide it, how to get students to use it to produce better work, etc. I might have thought this was something our principal dreamed up, but the following year I was in an itinerant position and saw the exact same focus in other schools, with a lot of student participation.<br /><br />One second-grade class stands out in my memory; they were all developing their own fairy tales as a concluding activity to a unit on fairy tales. The process they were required to follow was waaaaay more structured than "Writer's Workshop," and required them to develop characters and character traits and plot features according to a detailed guideline, with specific criteria. <br /><br />After some discussion, the children went to their seats and individually approached the teacher, who would discuss their work with them, regularly referring them back to the criteria -- "Have you shown how you character exemplifies [this trait] and [that trait}? How about your dialogue -- are you using quotation marks the right way? "<br /><br />What impressed me was not merely that the teacher was requiring the students to revise and improve, but that the students -- even "low" ones -- were able to discuss the requirements in detail and with understanding.<br /><br />It was definitely a long way from the "journals" I was used to seeing in days of yore, or the "anything goes" mentality, and I've seen similar scenarios at different grade levels pretty consistently since. In one of our staff meetings there was a discussion about students' self-esteem, but the consensus was that real self-esteem is based on competence and accomplishment, so our first order of business was to foster those things, and then recognize them.palisadeskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13700503881038569921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-15439101726900758302012-07-06T15:37:35.006-07:002012-07-06T15:37:35.006-07:00Thanks, SATVerbalTutor.
I only know the New Yor...Thanks, SATVerbalTutor. <br /><br />I only know the New York private school world from the media reporting. It seems things are out of hand there, really crazy.<br /><br />_Schooled_, by Anisha Lakhani, and _Academy X_, by Andrew Trees, are both satirical, but any good satire must resemble real life to sting. The cycle of ambitious academic assignments/kid overwhelmed/competitive tutoring/raise the bar on academic expectations doesn't strike me as healthy.<br /><br />I happen to think it's healthy for very, very few kids to have a 4.0. If you know that the grading's harsh, you (paradoxically) have the freedom to make mistakes. If everything has to be perfect, you will be afraid to set a foot wrong.cranberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-54795850440069260342012-07-06T12:22:49.787-07:002012-07-06T12:22:49.787-07:00Sorry, didn't mean to imply that was true of A...Sorry, didn't mean to imply that was true of ALL private schools -- just certain "top tier" NYC private schools. I don't doubt that are still prep schools giving out low grades (I think the average GPA at Belmont Hill outside of Boston is somewhere around a B-), but plenty of schools also claim to provide very rigorous educations, assign work that's way over the kids' heads, then give Bs for work that should be getting Cs or Ds. Pretty much all schools claim to have zero-tolerance policies for cheating, but at some schools that can be flexible if a kid comes from a sufficiently wealthy/influential family. <br /><br />My general impression, though, is the boarding schools are in fact better about weeding kids out who really can't handle the work, and for grading harshly when work is subpar; I can't see what goes on at Horace Mann or Trinity being stood for in quite the same way at Exeter or Milton.SATVerbalTutor.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14362826669168491773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-1558159855596694492012-07-06T10:54:00.376-07:002012-07-06T10:54:00.376-07:00I don't know how day schools handle it. We...I don't know how day schools handle it. We're also not in New York--I gather from the NYT parents hire tutors to tutor for As on a regular basis: http://www.nytimes.com/schoolbook/2011/09/27/a-tempest-over-tutoring-at-riverdale/.<br /><br />At top boarding schools, extra help is available--either from your teachers, or peers. So, if you're struggling in a course, your teacher or peers will know. There might be writing tutors available, but the tutors are school employees, not directly employed by the parents. Even if the parents pay fees for tutoring, the school calls the shots. In other words, even if a student receives tutoring, the school knows who's doing the tutoring while school's in session.<br /><br />The schools also set a rigid, demanding schedule. There aren't blocks of free time available to catch up with the help of a tutor. The schools are structured to teach students to use time wisely. As an aside, being out a few days for a bad cold can put a kid behind for weeks. The work you miss gets made up--if it's an exam, you take a new exam set by the teacher.<br /><br />The schools our kids attend expel students for cheating. I consider cheating to be a sign the student is struggling--either can't keep up, or doesn't have the discipline to use her time effectively. At any rate, the schools are able to fill the beds, although they don't usually accept transfers after the start of the school year. Tuition is set before school starts, and parents are liable for it, even if their son is caught cheating the third week of school.<br /> <br />Parents' Weekend usually features new parents walking around with shocked expressions--they've just seen their kid's grades.cranberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-33503164083249847682012-07-06T06:58:55.043-07:002012-07-06T06:58:55.043-07:00SATVerbalTutor-
I concur with cranberry. The rigor...SATVerbalTutor-<br />I concur with cranberry. The rigor in our daughter's boarding school is humbling- grade inflation is near nill.Dee Hodsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01188093717962091917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-13516317876749600902012-07-05T18:19:00.652-07:002012-07-05T18:19:00.652-07:00SATVerbalTutor, that doesn't match our family&...SATVerbalTutor, that doesn't match our family's experience with reputable boarding schools. Kids are given Cs, Ds, and lower grades, and those who can't keep up flunk out. (Or aren't invited back.)cranberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-22433053427001317162012-07-04T20:54:36.788-07:002012-07-04T20:54:36.788-07:00And it's worse in private school, where parent...And it's worse in private school, where parents are paying specifically so that their kids won't have to take responsibility for anything. Test too hard? Oh well, let's have thirty point of extra credit. Writing sloppy and unintelligible? Can't give it anything lower than a B! Student doesn't want (or know how) to write an analytical paper? Give a "personal response" option. The more prestigious the school, the higher the grading. It might be hard to get an "A," but you'd better believe that B- is the absolute bottom of the range, especially in the humanities. And then the parents talk about how the kids "just aren't good test-takers." Umm... maybe that's because the SAT doesn't have an easy out?SATVerbalTutor.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14362826669168491773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-28324398049785092782012-07-04T16:15:53.345-07:002012-07-04T16:15:53.345-07:00Kids are now being taught, from school entry (and ...Kids are now being taught, from school entry (and often prior to that, at home) that they are intrinsically important; the rush to praise every piece of their "academic" output, however, sloppy, incomplete, incorrect and incoherent it might be, for fear of damaging their precious self-esteem. It used to be common for teachers, even in kindergarten, to fix gimlet eyes on such efforts and ask the dreaded question: "Is this really your best work?" Of course, it most often wasn't, and the kids knew it. From that point, kids get Readers' Workshop, Writers' Workshop, endless journaling (aka navel-gazing) and text-to-self approaches to literature - because it's all about them, the precious little snowflakes, each one the center of the universe. The idea that authors might have more valuable insights into the world and their works are therefore worthy of close study, separate from students' own feelings about the work, may not get mentioned. There's a lot to undo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-23144319180810985842012-07-03T19:59:34.697-07:002012-07-03T19:59:34.697-07:00I concur with everything Jen says, but would like ...I concur with everything Jen says, but would like to add that the shotgunning approach isn't usually because the student thinks it's right. it's because usually any answer will get the teacher to STOP ASKING more questions.<br /><br />In TLAC, he names a technique something like "accepting no half answers". the idea is that most teachers are so tied into feeling uncomfortable at the silence in their classroom when they ask something, and are so anxious to provide what they think is esteem and respect to the student, that they accept (and even praise) any student attempt--they see even a stab as something to reward. no matter the answer is wrong. the teacher really may believe the student is "close" or "on the right track", and sometimes, this is self delusion brought on by their own yearning to think the student is understanding. <br /><br />but a student who has not a clue what the teacher is asking just wants the asking to stop. a wrong answer isn't as embarrassing if you show no effort. and if a teacher will then be satisfied, and move onto "right what you meant was" then they are off the hook.<br /><br />another reason why asking why is so difficult in a classroom setting vs at home is because literally standing there in front of them feels different than sitting at the table with your child. and it's a long time before a new teacher isn't experiencing that as class as "them". so the early habits at home are habits of authority and rapport already established (or else you wouldn't bother home schooling in the first place) but the early habits of classroom teaching are often defined by "how do i get them to engage? how do i make this feel comfortable (for them and me)?" but asking why makes people uncomfortable. that's a big hill to climb.<br /><br />and last, if the teachers in k-5 could not answer the "why" of any math problem themselves, they won't want to encourage it in their kids--because they aren't going to want to face not knowing.Allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01760659382790453648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-90140712547447259852012-07-03T13:00:44.558-07:002012-07-03T13:00:44.558-07:00"Is this not possible in a classroom environm..."Is this not possible in a classroom environment? I'd expect that the kids might slow down a bit if they expected to be asked "why" they added (or whatever) the numbers together that they did. Or do they really just not care? Or what?"<br /><br />It's entirely possible -- and works great once you've got a class that knows how to learn and respond. What I learned from my time teaching was the huge chasm between what I'd experienced in school and was prepared to do and what my students were prepared to do. <br /><br />All that stuff about intrinsic motivation, not using rewards, that I learned in ed school and reading about education, etc? That was for kids within sight of the bridge to the other side of the chasm! <br /><br />I adjusted as quickly as I could, but I wasn't dealing with kids with classroom self-control, with a desire to succeed expressed by hard work (yet), and I had to pull it back to a much more basic level than I had anticipated.<br /><br />Anyway, long way to state that my asking these questions was STEP ONE in a long process. A trial and error (and error and error) process. <br /><br />I did ask both why or how do you know. One of the best questions though was "are you sure?" Cocky kids always said YES! And I'd say prove it. Tentative kids would say, uh, uh and even change answers -- but they'd still have to explain. <br /><br />So, yes, we got to the point that this question was very useful -- it showed who knew what we were doing and who was mostly guessing. But, at least in my setting, it wasn't a successful first strategy.Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-27698230858788162782012-07-03T12:32:56.293-07:002012-07-03T12:32:56.293-07:00"Most of them liked to just add all the numbe...<i>"Most of them liked to just add all the numbers or subtract two of the most appealing numbers to get an answer."</i><br /><br />I realize that a homeschooling environment is *quite* different from a classroom, but a medium amount of the math schooling is me asking "why" such-and-such an answer is correct/true (some days I'll even ask why a given step is valid ... just to be mean :-) )<br /><br />Is this not possible in a classroom environment? I'd expect that the kids might slow down a bit if they expected to be asked "why" they added (or whatever) the numbers together that they did. Or do they really just not care? Or what?<br /><br />-Mark RouloAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-13160144569881719672012-07-03T12:11:01.405-07:002012-07-03T12:11:01.405-07:00...got them rereading the problem and stopped some...<i>...got them rereading the problem and stopped some of the ridiculous calling out of numbers that was very common as soon as a problem was read -- 57! 630! 2! </i><br /><br />Yes, excellent point: Machine gunning an answer. Part of the problem is the tendency for educators (of all stripes, including me) to reward students for quick answers. One result of this is pressure on them to make too much of too little information too quickly.<br /><br />In both math and reading comprehension, they'll take a couple of numbers or keywords, stick them together in some likely-seeming way, and offer a guess. If wrong, they'll take another shot, and another, hoping something will hit the target and score.<br /><br />This is Mulroy's "interpretation by free association" even in math.<br /><br />Mulroy says, <i>They lack the tools, however, for the precise interpretation of the meaning of complex statements. This kind of illiteracy boils down to an ignorance of grammar.</i><br /><br />That's true, but there's more to it than just grammar. In a word problem, you have to be trained to understand the precise meanings of modifiers and phrases. "The cost of both is X," versus, "The cost of each is X," for example.<br /><br />If we had significantly more word problems in math classes, we might teach less personal expression and more careful parsing in English.Glennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-78801590870559291152012-07-03T10:59:26.052-07:002012-07-03T10:59:26.052-07:00Because of course everyone is special in his or he...Because of course everyone is special in his or her own way and has the right to express a unique opinion and point of view. And of course there are no stupid questions. Or stupid answers. <br /><br />My students spend obscene amounts of time time staring into space, waiting for the correct answer to strike. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them to look back at the passage; they just won't do it!SATVerbalTutor.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14362826669168491773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-72199107820740715042012-07-03T09:04:47.547-07:002012-07-03T09:04:47.547-07:00"He apparently doesn't see what I see. He..."He apparently doesn't see what I see. He's not looking where I'm looking---at the problem. He just skims it and stares off into space, hoping to be struck by inspiration, I guess. If inspiration doesn't strike, well, whaddya gonna do?"<br /><br />I had written and then ditched a comment about these sort of problems in math. I taught middle school math and found that the kids (with an EDM background) very much favored the "stare into space and give any old answer" methodology. <br /><br />It's quick and easy for them, if not effective. <br /><br />One thing I ended up doing (these kids were waaay behind -- maybe two or three in each class who had basic facts at the ready in 6th and 7th grade) for all word problems was something along the lines of: <br /><br />-- What are we looking for? <br />(that is, read aloud to me that part of the question with the actual question...i.e. how many doughnuts will they have?)<br /><br />--Is that answer going to be bigger or smaller than ___________? <br />(go through each number/item in the problem, prompting them to say what the number is -- people, donut makers, etc. -- and how it will relate to the answer) <br /><br />Many times this at least got them rereading the problem and stopped some of the ridiculous calling out of numbers that was very common as soon as a problem was read -- 57! 630! 2! <br /><br />Most of them liked to just add all the numbers or subtract two of the most appealing numbers to get an answer. Because, of course, any answer is good enough, right? They *felt* it might be right and feelings are so very important.Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-86391236569746639232012-07-03T09:00:43.628-07:002012-07-03T09:00:43.628-07:00"Slightly off-topic, I HAVE found, in my poli..."Slightly off-topic, I HAVE found, in my political efforts here, that it is extremely difficult to get people to agree on what an 'ad hominem' argument actually is & to recognize when they are making one ---- I base this on an opponent of mine who I think has probably never written an argument that did not address my motives or psychology."<br /><br />If the argument can be rephrased as, "You're only saying that because you are X or want Y," then it's ad hominem, correct? <br /><br />"btw, I myself was surprised by Mulroy's point that 'looking for bias' is a form of ad hominem argument!"<br /><br />That's very interesting. So, the ad hominem argument is a get-out-of jail card from having to look at what the other person wrote and check it for accuracy. It's a sort of intellectual labor-saving device. <br /><br />"My students think perfectly well, as far as I can see. What they can't do well at all is read and write."<br /><br />That's also interesting, and it sounds like something that my husband's mentor said years ago about the undergraduates at his not-so-selective college. They are smart, they just can't read. <br /><br />Does this suggest that oral and written speech are very distinct language cultures? (By the way, have you ever noticed that it's a bad idea to simply read an academic article out loud? They're much too dense, content-wise--they aren't meant to be listened to.)AmyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-73467276092017957142012-07-03T08:41:20.507-07:002012-07-03T08:41:20.507-07:00With regards to ad hominem argumentation, I wonder...<i>With regards to ad hominem argumentation, I wonder if perhaps part of the problem is that students simply don't truly understand what ad hominem is.</i><br /><br />Just saw this --- and obviously I've already commented, but wanted to say 'ditto.'<br /><br />btw, I myself was surprised by Mulroy's point that 'looking for bias' is a form of ad hominem argument! <br /><br />But of course it is. You're looking for a quality you assume to be internal to the character of the person whose words you are reading.<br /><br />Obviously, that's what made me feel so uncomfortable when the Cambridge Pre-U students said that a news article in Haaretz might be 'biased against Arabs.'<br /><br />I didn't put it into words, quite, but what they were saying was that speculation about the private thoughts of an Israeli reporter should be part of the reading process.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-67338405253162099682012-07-03T08:36:15.441-07:002012-07-03T08:36:15.441-07:00Belaboring the point....so far my experience of ac...Belaboring the point....so far my experience of actual students is almost the opposite of what you constantly hear, which is that students 'can't think,' 'can't analyze,' etc.<br /><br />My students think perfectly well, as far as I can see. <br /><br />What they can't do well at all is read and write.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-68255738980796585312012-07-03T08:34:39.792-07:002012-07-03T08:34:39.792-07:00Talk is cheap, maybe.Talk is cheap, maybe.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-45557267877565604682012-07-03T08:34:13.087-07:002012-07-03T08:34:13.087-07:00Here's an example of what I mean.
In one of m...Here's an example of what I mean.<br /><br />In one of my classes, the single best 'classroom participant,' a young man who consistently came up with compelling and original observations about literature, which he supported with evidence from the text, was also one of the very weakest writers.<br /><br />I've seen that more than once.<br /><br />When I say 'weak writer,' I'm not talking just about grammar and paragraphing.<br /><br />His writing was weak in critical thinking.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-21493519511941817382012-07-03T08:32:34.572-07:002012-07-03T08:32:34.572-07:00getting students to find logical fallacies in argu...<i>getting students to find logical fallacies in arguments whose conclusions they agree with is very difficult</i><br /><br />I've got to start writing about this (and taking notes come fall).<br /><br />I don't think this has been my experience at all. <br /><br />In my experience (I think), students find it pretty easy to look for underlying assumptions once you give them some examples. <br /><br />Logical fallacies don't seem to be a difficult issue...<br /><br />Slightly off-topic, I HAVE found, in my political efforts here, that it is extremely difficult to get people to agree on what an 'ad hominem' argument actually is & to recognize when they are making one ---- I base this on an opponent of mine who I think has probably never written an argument that did not address my motives or psychology. <br /><br />At one point it seemed clear to me that she was trying to observe the 'rules' I had more or less set, and she was **still** making an argument about my character. But her tone was great. She had completely edited out any nastiness, snarkiness, hostility --- all those negatives were gone. She was using a civil tone to make another ad hominem argument.<br /><br />Anyways, back on topic....I teach entry-level composition in a non-selective college, and I consistently find that students think well when they're talking. <br /><br />It's thinking on paper that is extremely difficult. <br /><br />Thinking on paper is quite different from thinking out loud .... I wonder whether anyone has written about this. <br /><br />It's the creative part of thinking-in-writing, the 'iterative' part, the testing-this-paragraph-against-that-paragraph aspect that is so very challenging -- and that is quite different from what we do in an intelligent verbal discussion or debate.<br /><br />I've come to suspect that **some** of the near-obsession with "critical thinking" in public schools comes from the perception that it's much easier to produce intelligent discussion than good writing and reading.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-459377322242364842012-07-03T07:43:17.517-07:002012-07-03T07:43:17.517-07:00I suspect students learn "active reading"...I suspect students learn "active reading" during the blocks spent teaching "reading skills" in elementary school. I agree with E.D. Hirsch--it would be much better for the students if they were reading content, rather than "practicing reading skills."<br /><br />The personal response thing? Well, it was the first bad habit my eldest had to unlearn when she changed to her current (private) school. She was indignant, we were very happy. <br /><br />Her former school bought into the Writers' Workshop model of teaching, thus most Language Arts essays were personal. It's as if the entire chain of language arts instruction were aimed solely at the college application essay--"it's all about me!"<br /><br />As a result, much of the content of written work could not be checked for accuracy. If a student opines his grandmother's car is red, his teacher can't object.<br /><br />Also, notice how the "humans are evil/Nature is good" line is a good default option. When in doubt, fall back on "critical thinking."<br /><br />So, don't assume that the students are stupid. These habits of mind have been taught. This is what results from a refusal to teach content and a desire to encourage "creativity."cranberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-43895606540059624172012-07-03T07:27:13.763-07:002012-07-03T07:27:13.763-07:00Good work, Magister Green!Good work, Magister Green!AmyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-75648568906924841002012-07-03T04:41:08.361-07:002012-07-03T04:41:08.361-07:00Speaking of relating things to one's personal ...<i>Speaking of relating things to one's personal life, this piece encapsulates everything I struggle with in tutoring the SAT: no, I don't CARE about your interpretation of what the author is saying. I care about what the author is ACTUALLY saying. Literally. Word for word. As in, "read me exactly what it says in the passage." </i><br /><br />Heh. This is, more or less, exactly what I tell my students when we start doing essays in Latin. I give them three rules to remember: 1) No one cares what you think, 2) Limit yourself to the passage in front of you, 3) Respond to the prompt. <br /><br /><i>I can't believe students taking Latin have so much trouble with literal meaning. And here I thought it was the last bastion...</i><br /><br />Oh, the kids unlearn a lot of bad habits after a year with me. But it's a horribly uphill slog, in the snow, both ways. A real problem is that almost everything they write in English class is, more or less, a personal response and their writing in history class - which is actually often more rigorous than their English work - adheres to no particular standard. I've proofed students' history work before and it's often wretched, with a conversational tone, personal assumptions masquerading as assertive evidence, and sloppy citations. Still, it's more than they do in English class but it makes my job that much harder. More satisfying when they improve, but harder. :)MagisterGreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12447106786489253060noreply@blogger.com