tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post1174223721650474571..comments2024-03-26T04:19:38.862-07:00Comments on kitchen table math, the sequel: The Skipper gets off Gilligan's IslandCatherine Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-86476527655818041642007-10-13T08:16:00.000-07:002007-10-13T08:16:00.000-07:00NicksMama,Do you live in Prince William County?NicksMama,<BR/><BR/>Do you live in Prince William County?PaulaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739268887887184465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35443393733717632022007-10-13T08:14:00.000-07:002007-10-13T08:14:00.000-07:00Barry,This from Extract from this week's online co...Barry,<BR/><BR/>This from Extract from this week's online conversation between Edgar Hatrick (LCPS Superintendent) and the general public, on WAPO's Loudoun Extra....<BR/><BR/>Here's our question - <BR/><BR/>Is Loudoun County committed to "Math Investigations," or is there some flexibility on a per teacher basis with respect to how math is taught? I'm unable to find ANY positive feedback, from parents or teachers, on the Internet regarding this method of teaching. Is there any evidence this curriculum is benefiting Loudoun County students? Last year's SOL scores show a lot of drops.<BR/><BR/>Edgar B. Hatrick III: We are evaluating the use of math investigations along with other means of providing the best math instruction we can for our students. We also realize that one size may not fit all needs.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Okay, from the looks of things, it looks as though Loudoun is right on par with Fairax. They mirror each other. Also, both superintendents (Loudoun & FFX) do not like NCLB at all!PaulaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739268887887184465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-35385032029387963632007-10-12T13:58:00.000-07:002007-10-12T13:58:00.000-07:00"Have you changed your view of bar models? You've ..."Have you changed your view of bar models? You've been generally skeptical, right?"<BR/><BR/>I think that bar modeling is just fine, up to a point. I don't like to see it used on advanced problems where algebra is a much easier choice. The problem with bar models is that they don't work well when you just change the numbers on a problem. The student can't be sure when it can be used and when it can't. This doesn't happen with algebra.<BR/><BR/>This goes along with my dislike of algebra problems that students are given before they get to algebra. Some think that kids develop some sort of magical math sense or intuition. I don't believe it. My son has some level of math sense, but I don't see that helping him with algebra. Schools should take that same time and dive right in to algebra. Don't wait until the problems get difficult to introduce algebra.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-66867192023121381312007-10-12T13:04:00.000-07:002007-10-12T13:04:00.000-07:00Now we've got Earth Science doing the same thing.C...Now we've got Earth Science doing the same thing.<BR/><BR/>C. has been getting demoralized.<BR/><BR/>Why does everyone else do better than me?<BR/><BR/>etc.<BR/><BR/>Everyone else doesn't do better than he does, but that's the way it looks to him (and the way it looks to quite a few kids in the class).Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-85579656089780352772007-10-12T13:03:00.001-07:002007-10-12T13:03:00.001-07:00This course makes bright kids look dumb early on.This course makes bright kids look dumb early on.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-43990402681796959212007-10-12T13:03:00.000-07:002007-10-12T13:03:00.000-07:00I don't know what term to use for gifted kids, but...I don't know what term to use for gifted kids, but I've seen GATE a lot and it works well for me, because it stands for "gifted and talented."<BR/><BR/>I think (not sure) that those two categories fit.<BR/><BR/>In other words, in the way I think of the term, "gifted" is a pretty tiny group, while "talented" probably takes you out as far as the top 10%.... (I think Susan knows the way this is generally defined).<BR/><BR/>That feels right to me, given C's experience<BR/><BR/>I'm going to guess that, in terms of "raw" ability (and I don't know what that is!) C. is going to be right around the 90th percentile.... I may be talking about "g" (general intelligence), not "math aptitude," who knows!<BR/><BR/>In any case, C is in the bright-works-hard category which <I>feels</I> like it's separate-but-close to "talented."<BR/><BR/>One of the ironies here is that I'm pretty sure C. couldn't possibly have stayed alive in this course as long as he has, parent teaching or no, without a pretty large amount of general intelligence and a very, very good memory.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-1982089429075771652007-10-12T12:59:00.000-07:002007-10-12T12:59:00.000-07:00Steve HHave you changed your view of bar models?Yo...<B>Steve H</B><BR/><BR/>Have you changed your view of bar models?<BR/><BR/>You've been generally skeptical, right?<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'll draw up a bar model and give it to the dad.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-49260147487903567422007-10-12T12:58:00.000-07:002007-10-12T12:58:00.000-07:00Skip!No. No, no, no.Definitely not.Skip!<BR/><BR/>No. <BR/><BR/>No, no, no.<BR/><BR/>Definitely not.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-76532612028107069622007-10-12T09:10:00.000-07:002007-10-12T09:10:00.000-07:00You weren't talking about me, now, were you?You weren't talking about me, now, were you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-25866962662010214572007-10-12T09:08:00.000-07:002007-10-12T09:08:00.000-07:00you guys - check the "tags" at the bottom of Barry...<I>you guys - check the "tags" at the bottom of Barry's post</I><BR/><BR/>HA! Arrogance , jerks! I can't believed I missed his labels.<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid we have a lot of posts we could stick those on.LynnGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11467061079495021347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-25474835662792412972007-10-12T09:00:00.000-07:002007-10-12T09:00:00.000-07:00Bar model. That's what I thought of first, too. It...Bar model. That's what I thought of first, too. It seems that my son "sees" things like that without having spent much time with bar models. BUT, his "intuition" doesn't carry him very far, especially when the numbers aren't nice.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03956560674752399562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-23640574362533869272007-10-12T08:56:00.000-07:002007-10-12T08:56:00.000-07:00My daughter disliked bar models at first. It added...My daughter disliked bar models at first. It added a step and that was annoying. I begged her to keep with it as it would probably come in handy.<BR/><BR/>She uses it for the stupid stuff the teacher throws at her in "enrichment" where she either has to intuit the answer or guess and check herself to death (great way to chew up time when the other kids are still finishing their work).<BR/><BR/>GATE (is this your term for gifted and talented?) will probably intuit quite a bit, but even they can get stuck on stuff when no one teaches them the foundation steps.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the Dad might like bar models, even if his kid doesn't (I wasn't clear, I meant that the Dad should learn bar models -- the kids seems fine on his own. Maybe the kid could use a bar model to explain it to his father?)LynnGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11467061079495021347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-48954792648163718312007-10-12T08:53:00.000-07:002007-10-12T08:53:00.000-07:00you guys - check the "tags" at the bottom of Barry...you guys - check the "tags" at the bottom of Barry's postCatherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-45497513851747141382007-10-12T08:47:00.000-07:002007-10-12T08:47:00.000-07:00The point is that the kid knew the answer intuitiv...The point is that the kid knew the answer intuitively.<BR/><BR/>His dad is teaching him things like the identity property of multiplication, etc.<BR/><BR/>Although bar models might be good, too; I just don't know. (Don't know GATE kids and their needs...)<BR/><BR/>btw, I've had the impression that GATE kids -- boys, maybe -- don't necessarily like bar models.<BR/><BR/>This happened in my Singapore Math class.<BR/><BR/>There were a couple of obviously gifted (or talented) boys who were very, very impatient with the bar models. They wanted to do NUMBERS.<BR/><BR/>So I dropped the bar models for them (talked to their parents first to make sure that was OK, then dropped the bar models).Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-41916711531067549822007-10-12T08:31:00.000-07:002007-10-12T08:31:00.000-07:00Prince William County has seen tremendous growth i...<I>Prince William County has seen tremendous growth in it's ESL population (mainly Hispanic)over the past 5 years. I wonder how curriculum like Investigations will work with ESL students.</I><BR/><BR/>We're dealing with Scott Foresman, here and also looking at big bucks. They've got it covered. From the Investigations website:<BR/><BR/><I>Any of the materials that students use are available in Spanish, including: the Resource Masters in the Teacher Resources Binder, including family letters and all of the pages in the Student Activity Books and Student Math Handbooks (and Flip Charts).</I><BR/><BR/>See:<BR/><BR/>http://investigations.terc.edu/<BR/>components/spanish-comp/Barry Garelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281266848110087415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-66339426048961517442007-10-12T07:52:00.000-07:002007-10-12T07:52:00.000-07:00Lynn, AMEN.NicksmamaLynn, AMEN.<BR/><BR/>NicksmamaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-18241485251600066472007-10-12T07:35:00.000-07:002007-10-12T07:35:00.000-07:00Dad then spends 2 1/2 hours teaching the underlyin...<I>Dad then spends 2 1/2 hours teaching the underlying concepts with child crying, dad shouting, etc. Basically, the whole megillah.</I><BR/><BR/>Teach that man some bar graphs! And quick!<BR/><BR/>40 miles over 1 1/4 hours? Draw two equal length bars. The time bar can be broken down into 5 equal length segments (4 quarters in an hour, 1/4 left over, equals 5 quarters). Now divide up the 40 mile bar by 5 to get 8 miles for each 1/4 hour. <BR/><BR/>Or 32 miles in an hour.LynnGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11467061079495021347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-11662674777963117032007-10-12T07:21:00.000-07:002007-10-12T07:21:00.000-07:00Prince William County has seen tremendous growth i...Prince William County has seen tremendous growth in it's ESL population (mainly Hispanic)over the past 5 years. I wonder how curriculum like Investigations will work with ESL students. <BR/><BR/>As far as Loudon county being better than Fairfax, that's not saying much. My dentist had a child that went through high school in FFX without reading one book. He graduated and went on to college (needing much remediation). His middle child took a chemistry class that included zero labs. FFX is another school system that is hyped to maintain outrageous property values. I remember reading an article that implied that FFX's average test scores were so high because of the imported super-brains (my words) from Asian and Indian families. Also, FFX county schools are supplemented with more than a dozen Kumon Centers.<BR/><BR/>NicksmamaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-50944714107124973272007-10-12T07:18:00.000-07:002007-10-12T07:18:00.000-07:00Here's news.Scarsdale is contemplating dropping Tr...Here's news.<BR/><BR/>Scarsdale is contemplating dropping Trailblazers.<BR/><BR/>Can't tell, yet, whether that's good news or bad news.<BR/><BR/>Are they exchanging Traiblazers for TERC?<BR/><BR/>My friend is going to save the copy of the Scarsdale Inquirer that ran the story, so I'll find out.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-11011892624440176382007-10-12T06:48:00.001-07:002007-10-12T06:48:00.001-07:00It's possible -- in the strong form or in the weak...It's possible -- in the strong form or in the weak form.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-12756518133634059082007-10-12T06:48:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:48:00.000-07:00I now have the parent of a GATE child enrolled in ...I now have the parent of a GATE child enrolled in Ms. K's 6th grade "accelerated" class taking notes on what's going on.<BR/><BR/>It is an eye opener.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I'm seeing what it looks like from that side of the tracks.<BR/><BR/>It's not pretty.<BR/><BR/>(I may ask whether I can share his experience with you guys -- we'll see.)<BR/><BR/>In an nutshell, though, what appears to be happening with the GATE kids is that they intuitively "get it."<BR/><BR/>e.g.: kids were sent home with this questions: If a whale swims 40 miles in 1 1/4 hours, how far will he swim in 1 hour?<BR/><BR/>GATE kid says the whale will be faster when he's fresh, so he'll probably swim more than 32 miles.<BR/><BR/>Dad asks kid how he came up with 32 miles; kid says "I don't know, but it's right, isn't it?"<BR/><BR/>Dad then spends 2 1/2 hours teaching the underlying concepts with child crying, dad shouting, etc. Basically, the whole megillah.<BR/><BR/>For two years now, I've wondered how it is the GATE kids can manage this course and earn As and Bs on the tests.<BR/><BR/>I've also asked myself, what do those As ans Bs mean?<BR/><BR/>Can the GATE kids possibly be learning what they should be learning?<BR/><BR/>Based on one child (which may be enough), I believe that these kids are making it through the course on sheer mathematical "intuition" or implicit knowledge or number sense or some such.<BR/><BR/>And I don't believe they are learning what they should be learning.<BR/><BR/>They may be learning nothing at all.<BR/><BR/>I think it's entirely possible the bright-works-hard kids are <I>learning</I> more than the GATE kids.<BR/><BR/>The BWH kids are getting lower grades, but they may be learning more.Catherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03347093496361370174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-60016393977672220442007-10-12T06:45:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:45:00.000-07:00The Skipper: "Without parental support and involve...The Skipper: "Without parental support and involvement, it will be very difficult to convince young people of the urgency and importance of STEM literacy in this country."<BR/><BR/>Oh Lynne, of course the Skipper wants to hear from you. Don't mind me; I'm just a curmudgeon. Here's what I saw in the ink blot:<BR/><BR/>Without parents teaching kids what isn't taught at school, they will be ignorant of math and science.Barry Garelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281266848110087415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-878222781530948642007-10-12T06:36:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:36:00.000-07:00Talk about your ink blot statements.When I first r...Talk about your ink blot statements.<BR/><BR/>When I first read that excerpt from Skip's testimony I was actually pleased. I was reading it to say that as they go forward, they will address the concerns of parents and not simply foist some new thing at us.<BR/><BR/>Oh how wrong I am, again.<BR/><BR/>You are saying Skip doesn't want my input? He just wants me to quietly keep tutoring my kid at home so she can subtract fractions with different denominators?LynnGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11467061079495021347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-558055725350765582007-10-12T06:34:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:34:00.000-07:00There are many in the school system who like to br...<I>There are many in the school system who like to brag that Loudoun is much better than Fairfax.</I><BR/><BR/>If things keep going they way they're going, Loudon will be much better than Fairfax.Barry Garelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01281266848110087415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7691251033406320222.post-20572183056134761742007-10-12T06:29:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:29:00.000-07:00"Keep me posted on what's going on in Loudoun."Yes..."Keep me posted on what's going on in Loudoun."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I certainly will. <BR/><BR/>By the way, Barry, there are many in the school system who like to brag that Loudoun is much better than Fairfax. The first time I heard this I laughed out loud!PaulaVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739268887887184465noreply@blogger.com