My 5th grader just showed me her home work for the weekend. 26 pages, totalling 115 problems. Every single problem involves estimation.
Due Monday.
My daughter was surprisingly upbeat about this. It could have been worse. A friend of hers has 6 of these packets to do over the weekend.
It's panic time. The CMT testing begins in 4 weeks. We have a week off for winter break starting next weekend. Apparently all the fifth graders were tested for their weak areas and some extra practice was assigned.
If you were the parent of the child that came home with close to 600 problems to complete in one weekend, what would you do? Especially if this should come after 5 months of haphazard, math box type homework. This is so completely unreasonable and unproductive.
Why don't they just use one solid curriculum with distributed practice and feedback that builds cumulatively and consistently throughout the year?
I'm all for repetition and practice, but this is nuts. Just before the test, assign 100s of problems to do at home? When the kids get decent CMT scores, are we really going to attribute that to Everyday Math? The answer is sadly, yes.
Needless to say, we are taking a break from Singapore Math this weekend. My plan had been to finish the unit on ratios and review a little of the fraction stuff we did last week. It had been going so well. The ratio chapter was so logically tied into the work we had done on fractions. She was actually enjoying it and it came very easily.
But it is all estimation all weekend instead. This is not time well spent.
Plus, we have problems such as this:
Sara has 5 pet dogs ranging in weight from 65 pounds to 130 pounds. Which could be the number of pounds the dogs weighed in all?
200
400
600
800
Well, 5x65=325 and 5x130=650; Both 400 and 600 should be correct answers as they both fall within the range.
This infuriates me.
"If you were the parent of the child that came home with close to 600 problems to complete in one weekend, what would you do?"
ReplyDeleteI would spend the weekend throwing a major baby fit!
If you were the parent of the child that came home with close to 600 problems to complete in one weekend, what would you do?
ReplyDeleteKnowing what it's like to get my son to sit down for more than 30 minutes with a pencil in his hand I'd start by buying a six-pack.
Either the problems are so incredibly easy that they can be completed in a matter of seconds which obviates the need for practice or they are so difficult that they can't be completed in that time frame.
I wouldn't have my kid work on this for more than 5-6 hours over the entire weekend. He'd just have to turn in whatever he turns in and I'm willing to bet that very few of the other kids complete this assignment either.
It infuriates me, too.
ReplyDeleteThis is the crux of our issue in middle school.
We no longer have time to do serious afterschooling - partly because middle schoolers are rebellious, resistant, emotional, etc.
You spend a lot of time doing pointless homework assignments; then you spend more time wrangling with your child about doing something real.
Parents should be rioting in the streets.
Actually, parents here are rioting in the streets, figuratively speaking.
Knowing what it's like to get my son to sit down for more than 30 minutes with a pencil in his hand I'd start by buying a six-pack.
ReplyDeleteoh yeah.....
oh yeah
Lynn
ReplyDeleteI would just do the problems myself.
Find out how close she is to proficiency; then have her practice as much as she needs to to get fast (in 2 days - ludicrous).
Then do something real.
I did this all the time in Main Street School - not because the homework there was bad, though. Christopher had fantastic teachers.
I was trying to accelerate his learning, so when homework came home he could already do I did that homework and had him do something more advanced.
ABSOLUTELY DON'T LET HER WASTE HER TIME.
BETTER YOU WASTE YOUR OWN TIME THAN HERS.
After I had thrown my baby fit, I would work on composing a letter to the principal, setting forth all of my concerns. I would also ask for a meeting with the principal. The letter would address the weaknesses of the program itself, and the practices that had taken place in the classroom to date.
ReplyDeleteI would also attempt to anticipate every possible argument that the principal/teachers might raise in defense, and work to prepare counter responses and arguments.
I would also be in contact with every parent I knew who was also in this situation. I would use this as an opportunity to both gather support and also gain additional possible insights to strenthen my position.
This would be a tipping point event for me. Needless to say, I have had a few tipping point events . . .
It's not even distributed practice at this point. It's massed practice. Very massed.
ReplyDeleteGiven the volume of work that's been assigned, I can't imagine they are going to go over each of the problems in class. It would take all week. There's only 5 days left before the winter break. You can bet every minute will be spent working more CMT drill problems. And some amount of time will have to be devoted to the dreaded "mathematical applications" strand, which causes trouble for everyone. Extended word problems.
ReplyDeleteSo if we don't go over these 115 problems in class, should I assume that completing these problems counts as "teaching" her how to estimate?
Yes, Catherine, another tipping point is reached. But what am I going to do? Homeschool? Threaten to pay private school tuition on top of the hefty taxes? Start a parent riot?
It is incredibly unfair that any child is assigned that much work for any weekend. It is also indicative that the teacher knows that their teaching has not prepared the student to succeed in the test.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, by setting this homework, the teacher is implicitly accepting the fact that they have not spent enough time reinforcing the necessary skills, and are requiring the parents to do their job. Secondly, by setting this much homework (an amount that any child is unlikely to complete) they are setting up a defense against parent complaints about poor test results - If the children did *all* the assigned work, they would have done fine. Can you please show me the completed homework I assigned?
OT: Your criticism of the dog weight problem is faulty - there is only one correct answer. However, it is not an estimation problem. The problem says:
Sara has 5 pet dogs ranging in weight from 65 pounds to 130 pounds. Which could be the number of pounds the dogs weighed in all?
This means that *at least one* dog must weigh 65 pounds, and *at least one* dog must weigh 130 pounds. So the range of possible weights is from 4*65+1*130 (390) to 1*65+4*130 (585). Thus the answer must be 400, even though the average answer (390+485)/2 = 487.5 is closer to 600 than 400 - which would make 600 the better estimation answer. The question however is not about estimation, but calculation, given the nature of the instruction - "Which could be the number of pounds the dogs weighed in all?"
All in all a poor question, but I doubt your "Mrs.K" could understand the criticism of it!
Doh!
ReplyDeleteCloser to *600* than *300*. Regardless, the problem remains a calculation/logic problem and not an estimation problem, as you are not told the average weight of the dogs or any other factor that would allow you to estimate the spread of dog weights.
I would work on composing a letter to the principal, setting forth all of my concerns. I would also ask for a meeting with the principal. The letter would address the weaknesses of the program itself, and the practices that had taken place in the classroom to date.
ReplyDeleteThat part just goes without saying.
I wrote another one of those today.
It's not even distributed practice at It's not even distributed practice at this point. It's massed practice.this point. It's massed practice.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I would do the problems myself and have her copy them.
I'd have her do maybe 20 each day; if Lynn's got a Xerox machine or scanner she can copy the rest of the sheets and assign some problems each day so her daughter gets distributed practice.
There's no reason for massed practice.
Have her do 20 problems today, 20 tomorrow; then have her copy the answers you give her.
Keep assigning the problems you did over the next days.
It is also indicative that the teacher knows that their teaching has not prepared the student to succeed in the test.
ReplyDeleteHi Aus!
good point
(By the way, I feel I should say this teacher isn't my own Ms. K; this is Lynn's daughter's teacher.)
This assignment is a FWOT. (credit to Carolyn)
ReplyDeleteYour daughter shouldn't do it.
You could take a page from Rory and just tell them she's not doing them.
I've had many a tipping point in my day!
ReplyDeleteYes, Catherine, another tipping point is reached. But what am I going to do? Homeschool? Threaten to pay private school tuition on top of the hefty taxes? Start a parent riot?
ReplyDeleteThat's easy!
Parent riot.
I don't know your district, but I vote with Karen: letter to the school, meeting with the principal, etc.
ReplyDeleteExcessive homework is something administrators respond to from what I've seen.
Except when you're talking about a HIGHLY CONCEPTUAL REGENTS EARTH SCIENCE COURSE ONLY THE TOP 10% OF STUDENTS IN THE COUNTRY CAN HANDLE!
Then all bets are off.
Why is anyone suggesting that the parent do the homework? What if you just tell your child to *not* do this, and also tell her to have the school call you if they have a problem with it. Then continue with Singapore Math.
ReplyDeleteSure, the test score will be lower than if she crammed. So what?
(I must be missing something here ...)
-Mark Roulo
I'm going to write the letter. I'm starting by looking at various quotes from EM that say not to send home 115 estimation problems in one week. (OK, so there wasn't a precise quote for that, but some other good ones out of the Teacher Reference Manual)
ReplyDelete"Drill tends to become tedious, and therefore, gradually loses its effectiveness."
If you assign 115 problems on a single topic over a weekend, you must be repudiating the program you are using. If not, then is this a quiet acknowledgement that EM sucks and you have to do mass practice before a test to get kids to pass? Either way, there's no good answer for them.
Worse, my daughter isn't learning to estimate anything with this packet. She continues to find the precise answer and proceeds from that to figure out which of the given choices is closest to her actual response. She doesn't estimate until she is done.
Here's an example,
ReplyDeleteFelipe picked a pumpkin that weighed 7 2/3 pounds. Mila's pumpkin weighed 21 3/16. About how many more pounds did Mila's pumpkin weigh that (sic) Felipe's pumpkin?
13
14
15
16
If you are asking for an estimate 13 or 14 are fine. Unfortunately, my daughter found the common denominators of 16 and 3 (48), converted everything, subtracted, came up with 13 and 25/48. Then for some reason, she rounded down and went with 13 rather than 14. This makes no sense. This is not an estimation problem.
She is failing to estimate anything.
"If you were the parent of the child that came home with close to 600 problems to complete in one weekend, what would you do?"
ReplyDeleteI'd call the school and ask them why they let the problem get to this point? This is incompetence.
"Apparently all the fifth graders were tested for their weak areas and some extra practice was assigned."
So this is all about CMT testing? I would demand to see this test they gave. I would want to know exactly what problems were given and which ones my child got wrong.
"Every single problem involves estimation."
Is this true for all of the kids? Is CMT heavy in this sort of stuff? Does this homework correlate to the errors on the test?
Unless it directly affects the student (I suppose it might be hard to tell), then I would agree with Mark R. and ignore it. Actually, I wouldn't ignore it because you never know how these things can come back and haunt you.
Aus is right. It's a logic/calculation problem.
ReplyDelete"Which could be the number of pounds the dogs weighed in all?"
The key word is "could". The range goes from 385 to 585, so 400 is the only answer it "could" be. I detest trick kinds of questions that try to test something more than mastery.
I have said before that I want to show my son all sorts of trick questions and brain teasers because there are some people in the world who think that solving these questions (especially in a limited time) shows that you are smart. It may just mean that you've seen that problem before. Dick Feynman used to study up on all sorts of trick problems like this. The classic question of this sort is to ask why manhole covers are round.
What if they wrote the question like this:
Sara has 5 pet dogs. The lightest one weighs 65 pounds and the heaviest one weighs 130 pounds. ...
What if it was written:
... Sara has 5 pet dogs ranging in weight between 65 and 130 pounds. ...
"between" makes a huge difference.
And this is for 5th grade kids? My son is in 5th grade and I wouldn't bet that he could figure this out.
"... then is this a quiet acknowledgement that EM sucks and you have to do mass practice before a test to get kids to pass? Either way, there's no good answer for them."
ReplyDeleteDon't underestimate them. They might say that they don't agree with what's on the test and they do this because they have to do the testing. They might say that you should blame the testing, not EM.
However, they have to say whether the knowledge that is tested is important or not. Either way, they have the responsibility not to wait to the last minute to cram for the test. That is incompetence. Your child is not a pawn in the middle of some larger testing controversy.
Which is worse, that they think the material on the test is important or that they think it is unimportant?
I'm starting by looking at various quotes from EM that say not to send home 115 estimation problems in one week.
ReplyDeleteGood one!
Absolutely, a letter pointing out that CRAMMING FOR A STATE TEST is antithetical to everything EM stands for.
ReplyDeleteSo let's have the state tests or let's have EM; let's not have both.
What if you just tell your child to *not* do this, and also tell her to have the school call you if they have a problem with it.
ReplyDeleteThat option depends on the age and bravery of the child.
I don't know Lynn's daughter, but I suspect that the best thing is for Lynn to convey this message directly.
Ed's latest response to a Ms. K tests is so TERSE we're going to mail it in. We're not having Christopher hand-deliver it.
They might say that they don't agree with what's on the test and they do this because they have to do the testing. They might say that you should blame the testing, not EM.
ReplyDeleteI would just assume this going in.
You have to get them coming and going.
ReplyDeleteBlock all avenues of escape!
Steve's right: tell them 600 problems in one weekend rejects the premise of EM and rejects the premise of the state test, too (which is, presumably, mastery).
Are your state tests posted online??
ReplyDeleteI have just now read the actual problem Lynn posted.
ReplyDeleteIt is 1 am.
Just send this stuff back with a big red X across the page.
And.....send with it the real homework you had her do.
ReplyDeleteI'm serious.
CMT resources and handbooks are all posted online here: http://www.csde.state.ct.us/public/cedar/assessment/cmt/resources.htm
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no justification for this kind of assignment.
It is panic mode. Last year's 4th graders scored the worst on the CMT out of 3rd through 8th grades. As 5th graders, they are determined to not let that happen again. It is her bad luck to be in the poor performing cohort. The quality of teaching can't possibly be at issue. (please add scarcasm).
I'm drafting my terse, respectful letter today.
Well, the teacher responded to my e-mail. The reason for the cramming is, well, the 26-page packets only just arrived. So there's only two weeks left. That's why we had to cram it in. No attempt to justify the drilling.
ReplyDeleteToday, Monday, my daughter came home with a new packet. This time, its probability.
As for that estimation packet. She is to correct it on her own using the answer key. They are not going over it in class and there's no telling if any teacher is going to carefully review the work.
I'll try to pull together some of the links and information that I have on this.
ReplyDeleteIt is her bad luck to be in the poor performing cohort. The quality of teaching can't possibly be at issue.
ReplyDeletegrrrrr
The booklets just got here?
ReplyDeleteThat's an answer?
As for that estimation packet. She is to correct it on her own using the answer key. They are not going over it in class and there's no telling if any teacher is going to carefully review the work.
ReplyDeleteShe's in 5th grade?
this is ridiculous
Speaking of ridiculous, Ms. K sent home 3 pages of Math League problems this weekend.
I like Math League; I own Math League books.
I have no idea why one would suddenly assign one's FIRST Math League problem set 3 weeks before the state math test.
It had problems I couldn't do.
AND it had many, many problems they will NOT be doing on the test.
So tonight I have to force Christopher to look at the stuff he missed.
ReplyDeleteJust because.
I got another FIVE workbooks from UPS today.
ReplyDeleteWell the good news from here is I just had Christopher do a Venn Diagram problem and he whiffed it.
ReplyDeleteRadically whiffed it.
I'm going to be VERY sorry we never learned bar models.
I'm sorry now.
I'm trying to guess how many Venn diagrams he's ever constructed in his life.
ReplyDeleteDid we do some two years ago in Saxon??
Or not.
I know this year the kids were given Venn diagrams on a test without having been taught how to do them.
Fortunately I have a workbook on the way (at least I think I have a workbook on the way) with worksheets on Venn diagrams.
ReplyDeleteThough in the meantime I should probably just print out the Venn diagram chart I found on the web (where?) and write my own.
ReplyDelete