ktm-2 on discovery, time, and attention

Tex:

Starting in first grade, I kept telling the school that my daughter was exhibiting typical APD behaviors and was told that diagnostic testing is not advisable until age 7 or 8, which is also what I have read. I kept bringing it up, and last year in third grade the school agreed to recommend testing.

It’s funny, but I would never have researched learning disorders and pressed for testing except for the fact that she was struggling so much with math. If the school had been using a more traditional curriculum, maybe it would not have become an issue and she would not have been diagnosed.

It makes me wonder how teaching practices and diagnosed learning issues are related. For instance, is sitting students at tables facing each other a good thing for kids with ADD?

Paula:

Tex,

Thanks for the information. I have two sons, one in kindergarten and one in third grade. At the beginning of third grade, I was told he had trouble following multi-step directions and he was not fluent in basic math facts.

Not one word from the school about a possible learning disability. However, he was placed in a special ed class without an IEP. I mean, most of the children either had IEPs or were under a child study.

I took him to Kumon and his pretest indicated he was a year behind. My husband and I were stunned.

He obviously learned nothing in second grade.

His math fluency has definitely improved since attending Kumon. He seems to be doing better with following directions. There hasn't been any comments from his teacher. I keep in close contact with her.

Second scenario: I have a kindergartner at the same school. On my son's report card, it states, "He continues to not follow through when directions are given and gives the same reasons as he always does." The reasons are he forgot or he didn't hear them.

I volunteer in both my sons classes and I can tell you the directions that are given are vague. The children must infer a lot. All the children sit in groups facing each other.

So is it possible that both my children have an auditory processing disorder or is it the school's methods of teaching?

Frankly, I tend to believe it is the school curriculum and the appalling lack of direct instruction.

In any case, my kindergartener has an appointment with an ENT on Monday. I do not trust the school to administer any sort of test on my child.

Exo:

"It makes me wonder how teaching practices and diagnosed learning issues are related. For instance, is sitting students at tables facing each other a good thing for kids with ADD?"

That's a good question, Tex.

My husband's grandmother (47 years of teaching in Ukraine) that there WAS NO students with learning disabilities in Soviet school up until 5 years from now when the schools stated to use group work models in earlier grades. Yes, teachers studied psychology and abnormal psycology, they were taught to recognize such things as autism, but she says there were no students with learning problems that couldn't be corrected with proper discipline. Jumpy and inattenite, shy and slow - direct instruction and common discipline probably did their job. All kids by the second marking period of grade 1 were able to sit straight for 45 minutes and follow teacher's directions without speaking up.

As from my personal experience in middle school, I violate my principle's order of having kids in groups, and I refused tables in my classroom. I like desks in rows, all facing forward. I would love individual desks even more, but well... At least I have desks) And they pay much more attention to the lesson (again, I compared the results of tests and oral testing after group works and workshop model and close to direct instruction model lessons) if they don't face each other.

SusanS:

I volunteer in both my sons classes and I can tell you the directions that are given are vague. The children must infer a lot. All the children sit in groups facing each other.

I'm in a lot of grade school classes and I have to agree with you.

I think, again, some of this is coming from the idea that teachers are supposed to be teaching "thinking."

The techniques I'm seeing are what you describe and seriously slow down the classroom. You can see a good number of the children are completely checked out just by their facial expressions, but the teachers just keep on going.

Many of the instructions, and even basic discipline, seem to be a carried out like a full-scale Socratic dialogue with the goal being that the child discovers the all-mysterious point the teacher is trying to make.

Paula:

"Many of the instructions, and even basic discipline, seem to be a carried out like a full-scale Socratic dialogue with the goal being that the child discovers the all-mysterious point the teacher is trying to make."

Yes, yes! LOL!

My third grader has complained about how his teacher goes on and on and really he has absolutely no idea what she is discussing or why. He asked me, "Why can't she just get to the point and let us do our work?"

Tex:

LOL! I hadn’t considered the time wasted in “discovery discipline”.

Discovery discipline:
Teacher: “Now, Susie, why do you think Mary cried when you said she sounded like a cat when she sings?”
Susie: “Uh, because she likes dogs better than cats?”
“No, maybe it’s another reason. How would you feel if someone said that to you?”
“I love my kitty, her name is Fluffy. She purrs when I pet her.”
“Uh, but maybe some children don’t want to sound like a cat, they want to sound like a songbird?”
“What’s a songbird?”
“A bird that sounds beautiful when it sings. Wouldn’t you like to sound like a songbird?”
“I like parrots because they can talk. Mary sounds like a parrot when she talks. Is that a nice thing to say?”
Etc., etc, etc.

Direct discipline:
Teacher: “Susie had her feelings hurt because she thought you meant her singing sounded like a cat screeching. She misunderstood.”
Susie: “That’s not what I meant, cats sound so cute to me.”
“Would you apologize to Mary?”
“Okay.”

I find direct usually works better with my kids. One child gets distracted and goes off on tangent easily, and the other one says, “Mom, get to the point, please.” Come to think of it, that’s probably how they behave in class.

SusanS:

Tex,

Lol! That is perfect, and much funnier than what I would have come up with.

This usually happens several times before the teacher actually gets to the instructions or book to be read.

Little Mary and little Johnnie have now reached the end of their ability to sit perfectly still and quiet due to waiting for the non-answer of little Susie who has long since forgotten why she was called out in the first place.

Next will be the multi-step discovery instructions for the multi-step discovery project where there are no wrong ways to do it, unless, of course, you miss one of those very important steps.

Along the way to learning about the upcoming project are questions concerning why the children might do such a step. Followed by more long-winded misunderstandings of the all-important steps.

Thus, requiring the teacher to guide the confused children back to the point of the step in question.

Dinosaurs trying to escape tarpits had it easier.