I learned today that a second child, a 6th grader, also tried to tell the principal that the brochures were "bad" or "inappropriate" in some way. The principal brushed him off with some form of dismissive hand gesture.
My friend, the clinical psychologist, told me that the principal's refusal to take these children seriously is especially bad. She says that, regardless of the wording the kids used, these children were trying to tell the principal that they knew they shouldn't be reading the pamphlets. They were appealing to the leader of their school for help.
healthfair
Oh Catherine,
ReplyDeleteYour school is just dancing around issues. Here's a school that gets right to it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_on_re_us/middle_school_contraceptives_6
I saw the principal on a news show today. He said he "believed in it."
Is that the school that passed out b.c. pills to 6th graders??
ReplyDeleteSomething like that.
ReplyDeleteI think you have to sign on to their health clinic, but you can't exclude the contraceptive part of it. It's all or nothing.
Hey Catherine!
ReplyDeleteI just saw/heard you on MSNBC!
Wow!
Hi Dee!
ReplyDeleteI hadn't realized this, but the short form of a national television on-air interview is extremely helpful.
It allowed me to stay on the core issue here, which is the middle school principal's failure to protect the kids, without having to veer off into considerations of shared guilt.
It really is remarkable that the guy has not explained, apologized, or shared with the community what he has learned about the importance of listening to his students and taking their concerns seriously.
Of course, I'm sure the school has instructed him not to speak to anyone on the subject (or, possibly, the school's attorneys have done so).
Your children are not innocent. Whether it's one little boy in 100 or 90 little boys in 100, at least one of those little boys has had his first kiss. If even ONE student has had an experience like that, then the entire group deserves to be educated about how to safely and appropriately approach the situation. It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS better to know than not to know, and that is the bottom line. If a child is not ready to learn about safe lesbian sex, it will go right over his/her head. Children do not become corrupted or psychologically damaged by information that really is only about 2 years too mature for them, if it's too mature it all.
ReplyDeleteA girl who feels confined, oppressed, and stifled by the rules, regulations, and rigid attitude of the administration at her school will have NO problem making up something the big bad principal said, in order to discredit him. Your kids are not stupid. Your kids are strong-willed and more mature than you could possibly know as non-objective adults.
Additionally, teachers have one of the hardest and THE most important job in the world; without teachers, there would be no doctors, no lawyers, no taxi drivers. That said, it is especially important to remember that teachers are human beings who are imperfect, as we all are, and probably less imperfect than most of the population, given the challenges they face every single day. Regardless of how well or poorly a teacher teaches, they should not be, they cannot be publicly humiliated and brutalized. What kind of example does this blog set for the children it professes to be protecting? Is it acceptable for people to handle their frustrations and disappointments in their schools and communities in this form? What happened to discretion, to respect, to just plain compassion?
What are some appropriate ways to remedy the serious problem of having a bad teacher, which does happen? Perhaps by speaking privately with a department chair or principal or superintendent. Perhaps a bad teacher needs to have a great student. NOT bashing the reputations of fellow HUMAN BEINGS in a public forum, inviting cattiness and immaturity.
This has gone on for too long. It's time for some adults to grow up.
Okay KTM, I can tell this is going to be another record post.
ReplyDeleteGoing from a first kiss to learning about dental dams and lesbian sex is quite a stretch, don't ya think?
The bottom line is "parents", I stress parents because you obviously aren't a parent, should have the control over how information regarding sex is disseminated to their children. It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS better to know? Is it really? Says who?
As for your opinion of the blog, who is being brutalized or humiliated here? Certainly not teachers. Yes, it is acceptable to for people to handle their frustrations and disappointments on a blog, it is called free speech. If you don't like what is being said, you don't have to read it, do you? Simply because someone has an opinion different from yours does not make them catty or immature.
Goodness, I wish I could go back and be as free as you are right now. No worries about anyone or anything other than yourselves!
You are an embarrasment to our school district. You bash our teachers, the MS principal, and policies. If you have such a problem with Irvington, then leave. The kids from SUPA are right, grow up. Teachers are dreading having you as a parent, and im sure the middle school principal can't wait to get rid of you. And as for no hispanic children passing exmas, there is no reason to even be talking about that issue. It has NOTHING to do with you.WE ALL PAY TAXES, YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, who or what are SUPA students?
ReplyDeleteAnd as for the "HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT" who wrote with such fire and passion (if imperfect grammar), I wasn't aware that high school students paid taxes. But perhaps this shows how special Irvington is?
This is ironic! Kids complaining about free speech. There are lots of specific issues raised here. Deal with them.
ReplyDelete"It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS better to know than not to know, and that is the bottom line."
Know what, exactly? Everything? What is everything? Who gets to decide what everything is? The school? You?
"If a child is not ready to learn about safe lesbian sex, it will go right over his/her head."
And you know this how?
"What kind of example does this blog set for the children it professes to be protecting?"
Kids who read this blog will find that some parents are not weenies who will just roll over and accept whatever a school does. That parents set high standards and expect accountability. And, if you read more about what this blog is all about - Math - you will find parents who care enough to do the teaching that schools can't or won't do.
As it has been said before, we parents are quite capable of handling the sex education part, thank you. If a school wants to offer an opt-in "How to be a Lesbian" after-school course in middle school, I won't get in their way. Well, actually, I would.
PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR MY GRAMMAR!
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Irvington does happen to be a very special place. But i do know that my parents pay taxes, and yes they might not agree with everything, but they dont run around calling every media source they know of. This could have been handled within the district, but when someone tries to make a school district look bad, they go out of their way to make it public. It's just a bit much, that everyday there is something that you people find to complain about. And Middle School is a very strict place, with many rules and policies. You'll find that in every middle school. Perhaps that's why an 9th grade student that has just come to the High School, explains how they love the freedom.
And it's the job of school to educate your children, and if you feel the need to do so, then i suggest you home school them.
And one more thing, today I sat in on a middle school art class. When the teacher was working with a student i overheard a child saying, "This is your mom. This is me f***ing your mom. This is your sister. This is me doing your sister so hard."
ReplyDeleteSo if you feel that these children do not need to be educated, I am going to ahve to disagree.
HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT said:
ReplyDelete"PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR MY GRAMMAR!...[et cetera, et cetera,]..."
My dear fellow, how can I? At $22,000 a pop, one's entitled to expect a high school student to form proper sentences, don't you think? I won't embarrass you by pointing out the many mistakes in your post, but perhaps it'll serve to explain why so many parents are outraged.
"This could have been handled within the district..."
How? IIRC, these parents have tried over and over to get their concerns addressed by the District, only to be brushed off. Something wrong with free speech? with trying to get one's concerns addressed? Particularly when one's paying for the (!) privilege.
If these parents were to choose to homeschool, would you agree that they should not have to pay their property taxes, since that goes to fund the schools, which they aren't using?
I believe Catherine Johnson is pretty much homeschooling in any case, don't you agree?
My GPA is a 3.6 if i need to make proper sentances i will.Thank you very much.
ReplyDelete"So if you feel that these children do not need to be educated, I am going to ahve to disagree."
ReplyDeleteA course in sex education would fix the problem with that child? How, exactly? Perhaps your high school should be a little bit more strict.
Being a jerk is a quality unto itself. It doesn't usually correlate with ignorance.
"... explains how they love the freedom."
Freedom is a double-edged sword. You like freedom, but you want to make sure that others don't act like jerks, and that requires training that you approve of?
High school student, your logic is flawed on many levels.
ReplyDelete1) Just because a student knows about sex and uses foul language does not mean that the school is justified in passing out the type of literature that has been discussed.
2) Your statement that you have a 3.6 GPA and therefore can create proper sentences is not borne out by what you have written here. In many cases grades mean nothing in terms of what you know or do not know due to years of grade inflation. Also you are in the company of adults, if you want to be persuasive then it would behoove you to use proper English and sentence structure here, otherwise intelligent adults will assume that you are illiterate. You are judged by the way you speak and write.
3) This blog is made up of people who obviously care for their children and the education they receive. There is no reason to diminish what they have to say because you disagree. They have the right to their voice just as you have the right to yours. Just remember they have a lot more life experience than you do and it might be worthwhile to read with an open mind, you might learn something.
You have a very narrow perspective. This is not a put down of you, but every parent here has had the role of both student and parent in their lives, you have only had the role of studetnt.
Disclaimer -- I am not an Irvington parent just a regular reader and intermittent contributor
studetnt = student, missed that in my reread before publishing.
ReplyDeleteHey now, aren't you supposed to be in school right now?
ReplyDeleteAre SUPA students from the Syracuse University Project Advance at Irvington High School?
ReplyDeleteOne of the problems with jumping into the middle of a blog is the missing context. This is understandable since one has to live with a blog to really understand it. This is especially true if you are judging the tone of some comments.
ReplyDeleteUnlike many blogs, KTM members try to get down to specific details. That doesn't mean that we don't have very strong opinions, but it does mean that we have to be willing to defend our positions. Others have to do the same.
What "high school student" has to do is to get down to specific issues. Your arguments have been very vague and general so far.
"If you have such a problem with Irvington, then leave."
You have to do better than this.
I heard a variation of this when I was growing up and my draft number for the Vietnam War was 75. "America. Love it or leave it."
What are some appropriate ways to remedy the serious problem of having a bad teacher, which does happen? Perhaps by speaking privately with a department chair or principal or superintendent. Perhaps a bad teacher needs to have a great student.
ReplyDeleteHi student ---
You're right about all of these things.
When a student has a bad teacher, he or she should first talk to the teacher, second to the principal, third to the assistant super, fourth to the super, fifth and last to the school board.
You are completely right about this.
The problem for many, many parents is that we have repeatedly taken all of these steps, with no improvement in the situations we've been attempting to address.
I want to stress the fact that we are talking about a very large number of parents, quite possibly the majority.
I should say, too, that we've had terrific teachers in this district, as I've said many times.
The problems in the district aren't really about teachers although teachers take the blame.
The problems are about educational leadership.
Yes, we've had a handful of ineffective teachers.
The real issue is the fact that the district does not hold itself accountable for student achievement.
In other words, the student believes that when a student is struggling in a class, the problems lie in the student, not in the curriculum, the pedagogy, or the teaching.
The middle school principal needs to resign.
ReplyDeleteThis is a near-universal view amongst parents.
As to the media, I actually didn't contact the media, though I thought about doing so.
ReplyDeleteDo you wonder who did?
If a child is not ready to learn about safe lesbian sex, it will go right over his/her head
ReplyDeleteAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHH
New crusade: the Woman to Woman brochure must die.
LET ME REPEAT: THE WOMAN TO WOMAN BROCHURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LESBIAN SEX
ReplyDeleteIT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY AT ALL
im sure the middle school principal can't wait to get rid of you
ReplyDeletelikewise!
Perhaps that's why an 9th grade student that has just come to the High School, explains how they love the freedom.
ReplyDeleteYES!!
YES!!!
THIS IS MY POINT!!!
And one more thing, today I sat in on a middle school art class. When the teacher was working with a student i overheard a child saying, "This is your mom. This is me f***ing your mom. This is your sister. This is me doing your sister so hard."
ReplyDeleteshoot me
So if you feel that these children do not need to be educated, I am going to ahve to disagree.
ReplyDeleteCan a school educate a student not to say things like this?
I tend to think it can't....but I could be wrong.
I'm certain that a bunch of free brochures from Adult Health Services won't affect this child's behavior.
Please don't use the word "pedagogy" - I'd rather not throw up all over my flat-panel display, if you don't mind.
ReplyDelete"If you have such a problem with Irvington, then leave."
ReplyDeleteYou have to do better than this.
I heard a variation of this when I was growing up and my draft number for the Vietnam War was 75. "America. Love it or leave it."
Exactly.
I'm not going anywhere, and I am going to concern myself with the quality of education we are providing all Irvington children, including black and Hispanic children.
I hope you will, too.
When a student has a bad teacher, he or she should first talk to the teacher, second to the principal, third to the assistant super, fourth to the super, fifth and last to the school board.
ReplyDeleteaarrgghhh
I meant "the parent."
Please don't use the word "pedagogy" - I'd rather not throw up all over my flat-panel display, if you don't mind.
ReplyDeleteI apologize.
That was thoughtless of me.
"My GPA is a 3.6 if i need to make proper sentances i will."
ReplyDeleteLow-hanging fruit: First, that's a non-sequitur; GPA is only loosely correlated with writing skill. Second, it must be the case that semicolons and spelling are in that other 0.4. 8-)
To be fair, there's a pretty-much-immutable rule that any post or comment criticizing someone else's spelling or grammar will have spelling and/or grammar faults of its own. We are all of us guilty of this at times (I could point out faults in many of the regular commenters' posts on this thread and have little doubt that the same could be done with this comment), but there's a frequency threshold above which the faults start to reflect on the writer. Other than the shouting, I don't think the comments from our HS visitors have crossed that line.
The problems are much deeper than that:
"Regardless of how well or poorly a teacher teaches, they should not be, they cannot be publicly humiliated and brutalized."
There is a point beyond which they certainly can, and should, be publicly taken to task. Frankly, I think many of these teachers are incapable of the shame necessary for humiliation, but that's just my opinion.
As to "brutaliz[ing]", I don't think that means what you think it means. Public employees are demonstrating notable lack of ability or willingness to accomplish the tasks that they have been hired for. Pointing this out publicly, particularly after it has been pointed out privately without modification of the underlying behavior patterns, is entirely appropriate. This is in no way different from printing a picture of a road worker sleeping in his truck on the clock.
Failure to understand this reflects very poorly on your understanding of the norms of a federal society.
"Perhaps a bad teacher needs to have a great student."
While grammatically correct, that speculation is simply incoherent.
"This has gone on for too long."
Argument by assertion. What evidence do you have for this position? Why should we listen to your assertion? The available evidence reveals bad trend lines prior to "[t]his", no favorable change in direction or slope of those trend lines in areas without "[t]his", and superior results obtained by using techniques that this website is advocating and that the Irvington administration is entirely unwilling to entertain.
"You are an embarrasment to our school district."
Perhaps the school district could use some embarrassment; it's certainly embarrassing enough.
"If you have such a problem with Irvington, then leave."
If you have such a problem with the exercise of free-speech rights, perhaps you should find a country in which they do not obtain. In fact, public participation in public matters is precisely what our form of government is about. And, by the way, school choice is one of the great causes of the regular commenters on this website. As it stands, leaving would require either paying twice for school (once through property taxes and once for a real school) or moving to a different city with no guarantee that things would be better there. Irvington schools are objectively failing their students, which brings us to:
"And as for no hispanic children passing exmas, there is no reason to even be talking about that issue. It has NOTHING to do with you."
That is the rankest sort of bigotry, and you should be ashamed to even consider uttering it. What is it about hispanic students that makes them unworthy of a decent education? Why should I only care about my children and those that look like them? Every child deserves a chance at a decent education, every hispanic and black child in IMS is failing to receive a decent education, and you think that has nothing to do with me, or with Catherine, or with Steve, or Susan, or any of the others here?
With as much time as Irvington schools spend on character education, you'd think it might have some positive effects. Even here, the schools are failing catastrophically.
But clearly there is no problem that needs to be discussed in public.
Perhaps a bad teacher needs to have a great student.
ReplyDeleteThat is certainly the principal's philosophy!
Doug--You have a way of expressing exactly what I am thinking in a manner that is both succinct and elegant. Thank you!!
ReplyDeleteoh gosh
ReplyDeleteThanks, Doug
I am very distressed by the idea that a h.s. student would think that black and Hispanic students doing poorly on state assessments is no concern of ours.
I don't really know what to think about the fact that this statement has been made.
Maybe he/she means it in a different way .... he/she may be thinking that the school will fix things.
I don't know.
I'm also a little concerned about the social studies curriculum (which is actually very good --- )...
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm not going to go down that path.
The social studies curriculum has an "A" from Fordham, and our teachers have been uniformly good.
I'm going to see this as an example of fragmented knowledge.
I'm sure this student knows quite a bit about the history of racism in this country (and elsewhere), but isn't generalizing that history to the present situation, with a person saying that white parents shouldn't think about black and Hispanic students in Irvington.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I don't think schools can, generally speaking, teach character.
ReplyDeleteC. has had a very good social studies curriculum & good teachers.
The school is responsible for teaching this curriculum, not for how a student does or does not apply it to real-world situations down the road.
Catherine Johnson, I bet your son is incredibly embarrassed by all of the fuss you’re making over this. Let your children learn and explore the world around them. Are you attending Irvington middle school? You’re sure acting like it, and if you did, you’d know sexual things are a less worrisome issue than the rampant use of alcohol and marijuana throughout the middle school and high school. I feel like we have far more children who are ending up in the hospital from drinking or drugs rather than sexual exploration and education. As for you ripping apart a high school students grammar and spelling, I think that’s more than a bit childish. A more intelligent action would’ve been to educate them on your opinion rather than tell them they’re wrong. I understand that you want the best for your children as any parent should, but I think this is a little too blown out of proportion. I don’t think the principal is disregarding the students opinions but rather trying to decide on a plan of action that will appease flustered parents. All of this media coverage and pressure from parents is not making this an easy decision. It was obviously no ones intention to cause such an uproar, it was accidental. You cannot imagine what it’s like to be a teacher or principal in a school district with such expecting parents and I cannot either, but we need to have some empathy for these people because many of them have children themselves and have been in your shoes with the importance of sexual education. I’m sorry if my grammar offends your intelligence and if you want to waste your time editing it for me and then throwing it back in my face, please feel free. The point is, you’re overreacting to such a simple situation. Plus, you cannot take back the information that was given out or deny it, it’s the TRUTH. Remember Irvington parents, the truth is a good thing, something I think you guys might forget.
ReplyDeletePS: I have a 2.9 GPA and if you want to insult it that’s fine, but I’m being honest, GPA means nothing to me because it’s not a scale of my academic or emotional intelligence. It’s merely a number.
"Catherine Johnson, I bet your son is incredibly embarrassed by all of the fuss you’re making over this."
ReplyDeleteUsing that as an excuse to stop doing what's right would be moral cowardice. Catherine is not a coward.
"...sexual things are a less worrisome issue than the rampant use of alcohol and marijuana...."
While this may well be true, the instant subject is the recent health fair. Since the school chose to prioritize "sexual things", replying in kind is appropriate. When the school presents similarly inappropriate (because of errors of fact or incorrectly identifying the audience) information about subject you would prefer to discuss, then response will be made to that poor choice. Bringing that into this argument is the very definition of a non sequitur.
"As for you ripping apart a high school students grammar and spelling, I think that’s more than a bit childish. A more intelligent action would’ve been to educate them on your opinion rather than tell them they’re wrong."
So you consider "childish" an antonym of "intelligent"? I strongly recommend that you revisit your embedded assumption.
"I don’t think the principal is disregarding the students opinions but rather trying to decide on a plan of action that will appease flustered parents. All of this media coverage and pressure from parents is not making this an easy decision. It was obviously no ones intention to cause such an uproar, it was accidental."
When you make a mistake, the correct course of action is to admit the mistake, correct the problems caused by that mistake, and identify the means by which a similar mistake will be avoided in the future. When that mistake is in a matter of public interest, you must also be seen to be doing each of those things. It's not hard, but it's apparently beyond the capability of the current IMS administration. That does not speak well of that administration.
"Plus, you cannot take back the information that was given out or deny it, it’s the TRUTH."
As Catherine has amply demonstrated, it's neither the truth, nor the TRUTH, nor the T*R*U*T*H. And shouting is not an argument.
"It’s merely a number."
Let's just say that that's a big part of the problem (that's not a compliment, BTW), and stop there.
Are you attending Irvington middle school?
ReplyDeletePRACTICALLY
I can't tell you how profoundly I look forward to release from this place into the haven of Irvington High School.
Another issue: parents of K-5 parents are pulling their kids out of the district to avoid having to send them to the middle school.
This does not bode well for budget votes.
As for you ripping apart a high school students grammar and spelling, I think that’s more than a bit childish.
ReplyDeleteI haven't said anything about grammar and spelling (and, actually, I agree that that was a bit of a cheap shot.)
I don’t think the principal is disregarding the students opinions but rather trying to decide on a plan of action that will appease flustered parents.
ReplyDeleteThe principal has never appeased a parent.
Ever.
Believe me, I know.
He's not making a decision; he's not thinking about what to do.
He's done what he's going to do, which is transfer responsibility to Artie McCormmack, who stepped up and took responsibility.
It was obviously no ones intention to cause such an uproar, it was accidental.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely true.
That isn't the issue parents are talking about (and you just have to trust me that many, many parents are talking about this. I'm the person who speaks about these things publicly, but "where there's smoke there's fire.")
Here is the issue.
Number one, the brochures got there by accident. No one disputes this.
This is why you don't see anyone putting heat on Artie McCormmack.
The problem with the middle school principal is different.
The problem with the middle school principal is that once he knew the brochures were there, he failed to act.
The problem is even worse than this. The principal was approached by two different students and told that the brochures were "bad" or "inappropriate" (I don't know what word they actually used).
He rebuffed them.
He was also surrounded by wild-and-woolly 8th grade boys racing around the gym, grabbing brochures, showing them to their friends, etc.
The County supervisor gave me this account of the scene, as did the kids.
Other boys - probably 8th graders - were running around with "Don't Blow It" bumper stickers on their flies.
I'm sure you know as well as I do that if a bunch of 8th grade boys are racing around the gym flapping brochures in their hands, those brochures aren't the ones about cycling safety!
The issue is that the principal was the responsible adult on site.
The principal's job -- this is what he is paid to do, and this is what parents trust him to do -- is to protect kids and keep order.
He did neither, and, in addition, he has transferred responsibility to Artie, who wasn't there.
And btw, if Artie had been there, I suspect he would have confiscated the brochures the minute he saw the 8th grade boys taking such an active interest in them.
I’m sorry if my grammar offends your intelligence and if you want to waste your time editing it for me and then throwing it back in my face, please feel free.
ReplyDeleteYou've done a terrific job expressing your thoughts!
And I am intensely envious of your extremely good spelling.
I just hope my kid can spell as well as you do by the time he's in high school.
Plus, you cannot take back the information that was given out or deny it, it’s the TRUTH.
ReplyDeleteAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH
SHOOOOOTTTTT MEEEEE NOWWWWW
The Woman to Woman pamphlet is completely and totally false.
It is ANTI-GAY.
I really, really hope you'll put that particular brochure out of your mind, and tell everyone else to do so, too.
I have a 2.9 GPA and if you want to insult it that’s fine, but I’m being honest, GPA means nothing to me because it’s not a scale of my academic or emotional intelligence.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this will make sense, but this is one of the issues that bothers me about IUFSD, and that I haven't been able to make any headway on at all through private routes. (I have had many, many, many private meetings. You just have to trust me on this.)
Why do you have a 2.9 GPA?
You write well, you're obviously intelligent, you're tuned in and thinking -------
I don't know your study habits, but you sound to me like a student who is focused on school (I realize I could be wrong...)
Why do you have a 2.9?
Why is that OK?
Here is my core belief: a 2.9 average for a student like you is a 2.9 average for the school and its administration (and some of its teachers).
This grade is a grade of the quality of the education they are providing our kids.
You parents are very mean and rude. As far as the hispanic students go, i am one myself, so im not saying that there is anything wrong with them at all.
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for reading my comment and responding to it so quickly. I understand where you are coming from and that it is less of an issue of the pamphlet and more an issue of the principal. Am I correct?
ReplyDeleteoh, gosh, as for my poor kid.....he was mortified that I said, in the paper, that he had not yet had his first (AND I WILL STOP THERE!)
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for reading my comment and responding to it so quickly. I understand where you are coming from and that it is less of an issue of the pamphlet and more an issue of the principal. Am I correct?
ReplyDeleteYes.
Absolutely.
It's too bad the brochures were there, but it was an honest mistake and Artie has explained and apologized. I haven't heard of a parent in town who doesn't accept his apology.
The very, very distressing thing is that the principal has not taken responsibility for his own actions.
I should add that I'm sure my own kid was one of the boys who was running around going nuts over the brochures!
ReplyDeleteSo if you feel that these children do not need to be educated, I am going to ahve to disagree.
ReplyDeleteCan a school educate a student not to say things like this?
Well it can, if it offered a basic Critical Thinking and Logic course.
I never see this much uproar when the discussion relates to dividing fractions.
Although it's a pity the media doesn't come calling when the subject is Trailblazers.
You parents are very mean and rude. As far as the hispanic students go, i am one myself, so im not saying that there is anything wrong with them at all.
ReplyDeleteWe should not be mean and rude.
I hope I'm not being mean and rude -- I certainly don't want to be.
Do you have any thoughts about the 8th grade assessments from last year?
The administration gave a presentation to the School Board saying that not one black or Hispanic student had passed the 8th grade assessments last year. (They were only talking about last year, 8th grade kids.)
Some of my friends think that can't possibly be right.....
Is the administration wrong?
I don't know what to think, but I don't see why the administration would want to put out such a statistic if it's wrong.
A.S. High School Student, if you're still around.
ReplyDeleteHere's an analogy that is dramatic, but that I think is valid.
Suppose the same two students come to the middle school principal one day and say, "The middle school is on fire."
The middle school principal tells them the school isn't on fire.
But the students are right; the building is on fire. Because the principal doesn't listen to the students, the students don't get out.
(I know that's an upsetting image --- THIS IS JUST A HYPOTHETICAL! In a real fire everyone would get out!)
The question is, who is to blame?
The contractor who did the faulty wiring?
Sure.
He's too blame.
The school personnel who hired the contractor?
Yup. They're responsible, too.
But who is the person the parents and community hold responsible?
The person on site, the person whose responsibility it was to get the children out.
That is the issue here.
The responsible adult on site, the person who saw the 8th grade boys getting nutty, and who was told by at least two students that the brochures were "bad" (or whatever), failed to act.
Then, to make matters even worse, he shifted responsibility to a person who wasn't there, Artie McCormmack.
Now, more than a week later, he has not explained himself or apologized for what happened.
AGAIN: THIS IS AN ANALOGY.
Nothing more.
But I think it dramatizes the issue that parents and upset about.
I never see this much uproar when the discussion relates to dividing fractions.
ReplyDeleteAlthough it's a pity the media doesn't come calling when the subject is Trailblazers.
OH GOD DON'T I KNOW IT
I've had 3 different media trucks pulling up to my house to talk about sex brochures in the middle school.
Naturally I should them all my collection of math textbooks I'm using to teach my kid....
It was not you at all. I just felt attacked by some other parents who were picking apart my grammar. And GPA is not just a number, I have worked hard to earn my average, and my GPA reflects that. And to be honest I was just voicing my opinion. I did not know that a few spelling mistakes or a missed semicolon would create such an uproar.
ReplyDelete"You parents are very mean and rude."
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the deep end of the pool. While rudeness for rudeness's sake is inappropriate (and has regrettably happened here on both sides of this discussion), there will be times when people disagree with you comprehensively. The only appropriate way to respond to this is by presenting facts and arguments based on them, not appealing for pity. Fallacious arguments get no pity around here.
Your self esteem is your responsibility. If you can't handle disagreements, I recommend a different pastime.
"As far as the hispanic students go, i am one myself...."
So, what? Your reported ethnicity does not strengthen your argument and is no argument on its own. Your choice to bring irrelevant issues into the discussion weakens your argument.
High school student,
ReplyDeleteWe weren't really attacking you as much as your schooling. As parents and adults, many of us have been concerned with the writing abilities of high school students like yourself.
You were very brave to come here and you have many thoughts to share. Good writing can get those thoughts on paper, but students have to be taught things like grammar and structure. Those are the kinds of things we parents are concerned about around here.
I do think it would be a good idea for you to read around the blog a bit. You might find that we aren't a bunch of meanies over here.
Doug are you kidding me? When an adult puts me down like that, of course it's going to make me upset. You should understand that I'm only 17. I'm not searching for pity.And as far as my spelling and grammar go, I happeen to be very good at English. I honestly didn't feel that it was necessary for me to perfect my grammar because my only intention was to voice what was on my mind. If I was writing my college essay, I can guarentee my grammar would be perfect. And I have read the other posts in this blog.
ReplyDeleteI just felt attacked by some other parents who were picking apart my grammar. And GPA is not just a number, I have worked hard to earn my average, and my GPA reflects that. And to be honest I was just voicing my opinion. I did not know that a few spelling mistakes or a missed semicolon would create such an uproar.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree --- definitely.
Also, I should say that the folks here have known each other for awhile now, and have never met you....so when you suddenly showed up making some pretty hostile comments about me I'm sure people felt like they should stick up for me, because they figured I'd be upset.
(WHICH I APPRECIATE!)
Anyway, PLEASE don't feel attacked and clobbered about your punctuation --- I'M SORRY!
I hope you'll accept my apology (and my explanation).
Doug are you kidding me? When an adult puts me down like that, of course it's going to make me upset. You should understand that I'm only 17.
ReplyDeleteThis is of course true, and Doug knows it.
Doug is not a mean or rude person!
Doug is a loyal friend, which is the side of him you ran into!
Doug is right, though, that by the time you're 17 and a little older,.... if you come out swinging people are going to start swinging back.
ReplyDeleteI don't say that to criticize you, just to point out that....hmmmm... live by the sword, die by the sword, I guess.
You were very brave to come here and you have many thoughts to share.
ReplyDeleteThis is true --- you're pretty loyal, too, I bet.
I think you're being loyal to a school, and to teachers, who you feel are being unfairly attacked.
By the way, you might take some comfort in the fact that several of us chose to respond substantively. Even though your arguments have been fairly comprehensively attacked, you haven't been ignored.
ReplyDeleteYou have, in fact, been treated in precisely the same way as an adult with the same arguments would be treated. On the internet nobody knows (or much cares) about how old you are, what your ethnicity is, how much money you make, whether you've graduated from high school or college, or anything but what you write.
For the most part, the same is true of the adult world for the rest of your life. Once you get used to it, it has its charms.
Do you think 3 media crews will come to my house tomorrow to discuss the math curriculum in IUFSD?
ReplyDeleteI came out swinging, that's true. But it wasn't my grammar that I was talking about in my first posts. So if my thoughts were criticized, by all means go ahead. But to bring my education and spelling/grammar into it...
ReplyDeleteLET ME SAY ONE MORE THING ABOUT DOUG!
ReplyDeleteDoug is a SERIOUSLY smart person.
I do not get in fights with Doug. Not that I'm ever inclined to, but if I were inclined, I wouldn't do it.
I would lose.
This happens to be true of most of the folks around here.
For the most part, the same is true of the adult world for the rest of your life. Once you get used to it, it has its charms.
ReplyDeleteI like that.
It's true.
"When an adult puts me down like that, of course it's going to make me upset. You should understand that I'm only 17."
ReplyDeleteFirst, that doesn't depend on your age. Most of us get upset when we're attacked. With that in mind, you might wish to revisit your first post on this thread and consider the responses in that light.
Second, there's no PG-13 tag here. We welcome any serious commenter and reply seriously. I'm pretty sure we have at least one regular commenter who is about your age. (I only think this because of secondary indications; said commenter has never made an issue or argument based on that.) That said, your age does not immunize you from criticism; that's part of being taken seriously.
"I'm not searching for pity.And as far as my spelling and grammar go, I happeen to be very good at English."
If you read my first reply to your first post closely, you'll see that I was making pretty much that point. "Other than the shouting*, I don't think the comments from our HS visitors have crossed that line."
There is, however, a tradition in the intertubes (not just here) of, shall we say, closely examining any claim of the grammatical high ground. ("Irony" is the relevant concept here. Stark examples of irony are rarely passed by without comment.) Yours was by no means the first example of that in this thread, BTW, but you were one of the people I was replying to.
For future reference, had your initial post been of the form, "I agree that there was a problem here, but I think your response was unreasonable. This is why I make that claim: .... This is what I think would have been reasonable: ....", the responses would have been less incendiary.
* Repeated use of all caps for emphasis is the comment equivalent of shouting.
Well...this is interesting now isn't it? First of all, though I've read throught the posts on this blog, I am still a little confused as to why you are voicing your concerns about our schools on an internet blog. This seems not only a little immature to me but also ineffective for your own arguments. If so many of the middle school parents are so incredibly upset then you should probably bring it to a board meeting, school conference, or any other congregation at which all partiesinvolved are present (parents, faculty, and heck...why not the students for a change?)instead of on a website where no one in authority is going to give you a response. Confronting the problem in a place where you can actually have a productive dialogue seems like a better idea to me than complaining on an internet blog (which reads more like a burn-book)...but then again, what do I know? After all, I am just a product of Irvington public education, which might I add is, in my opinion, an extremley avid advocate of both critical thinking and logic, and a place that has pushed me to think, work, and be more than I ever thought possible.
ReplyDeleteBefore you have a chance to point it out yourselves, I would like to acknowledge that I wrote "thought" instead of "though" accidentally and I also forgot a space between "parties" and "involved". Sorry! Now feel free to attack!
ReplyDelete"I am still a little confused as to why you are voicing your concerns about our schools on an internet blog.... you should probably bring it to a board meeting, school conference, or any other congregation at which all parties involved are present...."
ReplyDeleteMany regular commenters started out by doing exactly that. In particular, this is a battle that Catherine has been fighting in those fora for years, with a notable lack of impact on the policies of the school. That failure resulted in a change in tactics.
The fact that so many people showed up this afternoon indicates that that change in tactics was (to some extent) successful.
Wow-
ReplyDeleteHole up in your classroom for a week with report cards and conferences and the whole blog is aflame ;-)
I am a parent, I am a teacher, I had a 4.0 in college, but a 2.9 in high school and I'll go out on a limb here and state that, from my memory, middle school simply sucked. Pressure, hormones, changing into hideous school swimsuits, curriculum, teachers, drugs, peers, first kisses; it was all awful - lesbian dental dams or no.
The only NORMAL person on campus was the principal. He understood teens AND parents.
Isn't it wonderful the difference a single person can make?
I am still a little confused as to why you are voicing your concerns about our schools on an internet blog
ReplyDeleteWell, that’s what this internet thing is for. It has dramatically lowered the barriers to entry, so communities with shared interests can quickly develop. Big (Facebook) or small (Kitchen Table Math) it’s a revolutionary tool.
This blog is about what each of us are doing in regarding the state of education and our own children. It’s a national (or even international) group. If you look at the other threads you will find a lot more content on Singapore versus Trailblazers math curriculums than about Irvington school assemblies.
You’re are coming into the middle of discussion that’s been going on for quite some time.
"... middle school simply sucked."
ReplyDeleteI certainly can't argue with that, but I guarantee that it sucks more in some places than others. (We moved twice when I was that age, and there was a definite difference in tone that seemed to depend heavily on the school staff.)
"The only NORMAL person on campus was the principal. He understood teens AND parents."
Assumes facts not in evidence. Also, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
"Isn't it wonderful the difference a single person can make?"
Since any claim that the principal's difference-making is "wonderful" would be absurd, I'll read that charitably. I agree that Catherine seems to be making a real and positive difference in Irvington.
Right about now I am wondering what Right Wing Professor would say to these high school students?
ReplyDeleteOne can only imagine.
Oh- so sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the difference any single one person can make in the world, either the high school commenter, Catherine or a decent principal -not any one person in particular. I'll keep further memories to myself as they are, as you correctly point out, not "facts".
ReplyDeleteI've never been to Irvington, however, it seems as though this principal is also making a difference, maybe not a positive one. It's obvious from these comments that people have been moved.
"You’re are coming into the middle of discussion that’s been going on for quite some time."
ReplyDeleteThat's fair enough and I, like the rest of you, was just trying to voice an opinion, not attack or come off as abrasive.
High School Student,
ReplyDeleteI criticised your grammar, but Catherine didn't.
If your tone had been a little less confrontational, I'd probably have responded to the substance of your post.
A lot of parents are very upset about the state of public education, and it doesn't help when their motives are impugned. I send both my kids to private schools, and I wish I didn't have to. So all this is very serious stuff for us.
BTW, the "s" in "criticised" ain't a spelling mistake.
Verghis
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteis this blog for pettiness? Talk about drama in middle school...what about here on the blog. The student might haven been confrontational but that doesn't mean that you, as an experienced mature parent, should retaliate in a rude manner. You should always look at the substance, regardless of tone. Any educated person should know that.
ReplyDeleteYou should always look at the substance, regardless of tone. Any educated person should know that.
ReplyDeleteVisions of recursivity dance through my head. Make it stop!
http://unclehornhead.blogspot.com/recursive-news.jpg
First, let it be known that the high school student posters are separate entities entirely from the SUPA class post. Please do not confuse the two or lump the comments together unless they are directly related in content.
ReplyDeleteSecond, it is obvious that we all were rather worked up when we first responded, and did not and could not have read the entirety of the posts on this blog. Forgive our impulsivity, but feeling passionately about issues this close to home clouded our judgment momentarily. This is not to say that we rescind our statements, but let me clear a few things up:
Firstly, having been a victim of abominable teaching and asinine classes more than once, I agree with many of Ms. Johnson's core points. Please, Ms. Johnson, don't take any of our harsh words personally. You do not seem to be the "problem" with this forum. Irvington needs intelligent and strong-willed adults to point out the flaws and work to perfect them. Yet the fact of the matter is that regardless of the now obvious fact that this blog is not devoted to teacher-bashing or cattiness, it is undeniable that the community-wide reputation of the blog is pointedly against its mission; There IS a catty immaturity associated with the idea of an online forum where parents vent about how terrible the school district is. I think the center of this new student-parent conflict is in the delivery more than the content. Isn't there a more formal forum for the voicing of concerns that is less reminiscent of middle school-esque behavior? This is merely a suggestion.
Most importantly, PLEASE don't patronize us. Perhaps it is difficult to believe, but as students, we are mainly interested in the same things you are -- a comprehensive, fair, well-rounded, education where we learn not simply vocational skills but the tools we need to approach any and every situation with a depth of understanding and a critical mind. We benefit from the same things, students and parents, and it seems only logical that the next step in the right direction is to work alongside one another if we really care about this community. Today, we got involed -- that first SUPA comment should have been the induction of a new and important perspective to the crusade, so to speak, and not a launch point for disagreement and, in some cases, downright rudeness.
Lastly, it must be asked, are you sitting through the new AP curricula in literature, American history, or economics? Do you remember what it was like to learn how to find the fourth derivative of the negative cosine x graph at the point (7,11)? Let us be a part of the solution you seek, and please do not profess that you are working in the best interest of your children and the Irvington students if you don't take our input here seriously. How would you have felt about all of our comments had they not been signed "student?"
Hi One of the Supa students.
ReplyDeleteI remember what it was like when I was teaching AP Chemistry. I was really happy when some of my students got 5's. However I'm not sure exactly why you asked that question.
It's very easy to start a blog. I'd be interested to read a student blog and learn what your concerns are.
susanj -- I asked that question to make the point that we are currently experiencing the very thing you are trying to improve upon. We live it. Every day we are taught by these teachers, we take these courses, we go to these assemblies. So, while we may very well start our own blog, why shouldn't we be welcomed as a part of this one? Doesn't your mission NEED input from our perspective in order to be effective in the first place? Without us, it seems the whole arguement is incomplete.
ReplyDeleteMs. Johnson made a great point in saying that we are responding with our intense loyalty to a school we cherish and call home, and teachers we feel are being attacked (well, originally we thought this at least). That said, please overlook our uber-passion and heatedness. What my previous post was getting at is that we are not suddenly involved here in order to criticize this blog. We are here to become a part of the solution it calls for. Please, realistically, objectively, let us in.
"is this blog for pettiness?"
ReplyDeleteAre you being rude or just confrontational? I can't tell. Is this supposed to make your arguments stronger?
"The student might haven been confrontational but that doesn't mean that you, as an experienced mature parent, should retaliate in a rude manner."
I think Doug covered this point just fine a while back.
"You should always look at the substance, regardless of tone."
But it doesn't matter, does it? I never got any response to my previous attempt (repeated below). One of the failures of debate is picking and choosing what you respond to.
- - - - - -
"It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS better to know than not to know, and that is the bottom line."
Know what, exactly? Everything? What is everything? Who gets to decide what everything is? The school? You?
"If a child is not ready to learn about safe lesbian sex, it will go right over his/her head."
And you know this how?
- - - - - -
I've looked at the substance (that I could find), made comments, and got no response.
There are lots of tricks to debate, so it's easy to get sidetracked, but the key is substance. Catherine has provided tons of substance. Some don't like the tone, but there is a specific reason for it. It may make some people uncomfortable, but the solution is to address the substance, not the tone. There is the possibility of having the tone get in the way of the message, but this battle is not for sissies, and Catherine is no sissy.
So, I'm still waiting for substance. If you want to discuss character or sex education in schools, then be prepared for lots of details and evaluation of fundamental assumptions.
Oh gosh. I didn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't post here. What I meant was that I was willing to read a blog where you are in charge out of respect for your opinions.
ReplyDeleteMany of the people at KTM are not local. I happen to live in NM (where it is 2 hours earlier!) I encountered this blog originally because of an interest in autism. I stayed because of an interest in math education related to my work with braille math and, to some extent, trying to understand my grandchildrens' experiences with the current curricula which have changed a lot since my kids graduated HS ~20 years ago.
I don't use it as a forum to directly address issues of concern to me but as a way to expand my perspective.
Well then thank you for partaking. Please reiterate this point to about half of the other bloggers who have responded here.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but what kind of comment is that? What point did Susan J make that needs to be "reiterated" to half the other bloggers here?
ReplyDeleteNice image, Myrtle!
ReplyDeleteI, for one, am pleased that we are getting students’ perspective here. It would also be nice to hear from Irvington parents.
ReplyDeleteI can accept some messy passionate dialog, especially from teenagers. Actually, I would be surprised and disappointed if we limited this blog to clinically factual comments. However, if there could be more focus on the substance and the facts, this debate would be much more fruitful. Expressing how you feel about an attack on your school only gets you so far. Addressing specific questions helps us all understand this issue better.
hmm... it seems to me that almost none of you are actually reading the student comments. they are not here (yet) to talk about the quality of education at IMS, although how could one possibly discuss that without including the students of the school? no, they seem to be here to comment on THIS blog, and THIS forum and its effectiveness.
ReplyDeletethat said, however, does ayone have any questions for these students that get at specific issues of importance here? shouldn't they be consulted? after all, it is Their school....
To the high school students posting:
ReplyDeleteRegarding your middle school math courses. Could you let us know if any of you received private tutoring, or were enrolled in a center such as Sylvan or Kumon? Did your parents do a lot of work with you to help you understand what was being covered? Did you find that the teaching you received in your math courses in middle school, excluding any outside help as mentioned above, was sufficient to prepare you for high school math? If you found any of your middle school math courses lacking in any way, could you provide details on this and how you would have wanted to see them improved? Also, could you describe the things you liked about your middle school math classes, and in particular, what you found effective in learning math. If, for example, you liked keeping a math journal, did you find that doing so helped you understand and master specific math concepts?
Thank you.
sheesh - hadn't checked in 'til now
ReplyDeletewell, I have just skimmed all of this...(will read closely later on)
I'm definitely up for some kind of joint student-parent (and teacher?) venture - I'd love to be able to discuss these matters with h.s. students who are in a position to know how things work.
That would be fantastic!
I'm not sure where to do it, though --- should we have a separate "Irvington Schools" blog???
It could easily be set up as this one is, as a group blog with members who can make posts as they see fit.
I suggest this as a possibility because ktm-2 is itself a group blog. We have around 50 members, including teachers and parents.
Most of us complain about our schools (we've got some big-time teacher complaining about their schools, too.)
But it's not about Irvington, per se.
I'm going to put my email address in the next Comment --- maybe interested students could shoot me an email and tell me what they'd like to do.
Also, I hope ktm members will weigh in.
What would you prefer?
Have an "Irvington debate/diagologue" take place on the Irvington posts....and have the rest of the blog carry on as usual?
Or have a real Irvington Schools blog "spin off" as a separate entity?
I'm open to anything.
Also, I'd like to say this again, to reinforce the point: the issue isn't "the teachers."
The issue is twofold:
* district policies and longstanding practices to which many, many parents object
* the lack of "Shared Decision Making," which, by law, parents and teachers are supposed to have (I don't think students get to share power according to NY state - unfortunately!)
Parents and teachers do not have Shared Decision Making ever.
If we did, I wouldn't be writing a blog!
OK, everyone, if you feel like weighing in, please do!
Here's my email address:
ReplyDeletecijohn@verizon.net
Group blog for "Irvington schools"?
Irvington discussion & debate on Irvington posts?
Something else?
I personally would really like to be talking to IUFSD students.
We parents are locked out of our own schools.
To the high school students posting:
ReplyDeleteRegarding your middle school math courses. Could you let us know if any of you received private tutoring, or were enrolled in a center such as Sylvan or Kumon? Did your parents do a lot of work with you to help you understand what was being covered? Did you find that the teaching you received in your math courses in middle school, excluding any outside help as mentioned above, was sufficient to prepare you for high school math? If you found any of your middle school math courses lacking in any way, could you provide details on this and how you would have wanted to see them improved? Also, could you describe the things you liked about your middle school math classes, and in particular, what you found effective in learning math. If, for example, you liked keeping a math journal, did you find that doing so helped you understand and master specific math concepts?
Thank you.
>
>
I did not have a tutor whilst taking math in middle school; I did receive ALOT of help from my father. At times the teachers moved too quickly onto the next thing before covering the task at hand. Middle school math did prepare me for high school math somewhat well. This could also be because the high school teachers each spent about a semester reviewing what we were supposed to already know. Overall my math experience was not a bad one at IMS.
Alright, this has given me a spark of inspiration. It's time for an Irvington student blog.
ReplyDeleteAlright, this has given me a spark of inspiration. It's time for an Irvington student blog.
ReplyDeleteI did receive ALOT of help from my father.
ReplyDeleteThis is my core issue.
I've spent nearly 3 years reteaching myself K-12 math so I can teach math at home to my kid, who is perfectly capable of learning the material if it is taught well.
When I say "taught well," I mean taught by the teacher, not the parent.
This question of parents "helping with homework" (and hiring tutors) speaks directly to the IMS Achievement Gap.
What happens to kids whose parents can't help with math homework?
I know what happens, because it happens here.
My own kid (boy, I get you guys are REALLY feeling sorry for him by now!) .... my own kid does well in math when I'm focused on teaching math at home; his grades drop like a stone when I get distracted by little things like trying to earn a living.
At the beginning of this school year, I wasn't paying attention.
His first grade on a test was a 60.
That galvanized me into action, and I've been teaching him ever since. I create problem sets for him to do; I check to see where the gaps in his knowledge are; I preteach lessons whenever I can, etc.
His grade on the second test was an 87.
That right there tells you everything you need to know --- and I know tons of kids in this boat.
Without outside teaching, a very large number of kids in the accelerated math course would have to drop it.
One other point, which I assume most students here don't realize: the international standard for math ed is algebra in the 8th grade for all students, above average, average, and below.
This is a simple fact.
Our district is far behind international standards, and is doing nothing to adopt international standards.
Getting back to the fairness issue, again, the KIPP Academy, in the Bronx, a charter school serving disadvantaged black and Hispanic students, has an 80% pass rate on Regents Math A at the end of 8th grade.
These kids come into the school in 5th grade not knowing how to multiply.
By the end of 8th grade 80% of them have successfully completed Math A -- and they don't have their parents teaching the course at home.
When you've got your advantaged kids relying on help from their parents or from tutors, the playing field is not level.
It's time for an Irvington student blog.
ReplyDeleteBonne idee!
Are you inviting parents?
Good idea, either way.
And let me tell you: the administration is not going to like it.
Free speech is breaking out all over.
Looks like there may also be a district newspaper popping up, too!
A real one, with real news.
I have a follow-up question for the math student -- do you mind telling me whether you were in the accelerated math track?
ReplyDeleteThe accelerated track has **huge** problems.
I can't tell whether the regular track is less problematic.
But, again, the core issue is that the "accelerated" track isn't accelerated.
It's the regular track for the rest of the world, but it's made so difficult here that the most academically inclined kids need help to get through it.
You left out the fact that KIPP students go to school until 5:00, attend school every other Saturday, and attend school for a session in the summer. That would go over very well in Irvington!
ReplyDeleteI was originally in accelerated math but decided to drop back in the 8th to spite my teachers wishes. Regular math was equally as difficult especially with larger class sizes and less one on one time. I struggled but it was fine when i entered highschool. I do notice alot of seniors now dropping out of pre-calculus right now because they find it too challenging to handle.
ReplyDeleteThe blog will be open to anyone who has an opinion to voice. I will post the link after i finish making it. I hope it helps to put students and parents on the same forum. Maybe we can even get teachers posting!! (doubtful)
I have been in honors math for my entire Irvington career (10 years), I have a 4.1 GPA, and I have been on high honor roll every quarter of my life. I have also been a teaching assistant for teachers in the high school for more than one subject. I have never had a tutor, never had any outside help other than the occasional visit to my teacher during a free period, and I STILL think our district has major problems with incompetant teachers.
ReplyDeleteYou left out the fact that KIPP students go to school until 5:00, attend school every other Saturday, and attend school for a session in the summer. That would go over very well in Irvington!
ReplyDeleteRight, but the KIPP kids are making up for years of poor education, which isn't true of Irvington kids.
It is EXTREMELY difficult to regain territory --- I know, because I did it with my own kid, who had an ineffective math teacher in 4th grade (she wasn't given tenure).
They're taking these kids from nowhere to passing Math A in....4 years.
Also, some of us here think KIPP may be working the kids harder than it has to.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to criticize KIPP, because they are working miracles...but there is a form of teaching called "precision teaching" that focuses on teaching kids as effectively and as efficiently as possible.
KIPP isn't using precision teaching to my knowledge.
In any case, Irvington kids don't need Saturday and summer classes to take algebra in the 8th grade.
Irvington kids - and I don't mean to sound arrogant - are a talented lot. They can, nearly all of them, easily master beginning algebra in 8th grade without breaking a sweat.
I'm dead serious about this.
There is no reason on earth to make Math A a "killer" course for our kids.
From what I'm reading many things have changed within the math program. I am now a senior, and took the math A regents while in high school.( I can't remeber if it was in 9th or 10th grade, but i scored a 94)It looks as if many kids are taking them in 8th grade now. I never took accelerated math but have excelled in the math program at Irvington. I never had a problem with the teachers and always found regular math at IMS to be very easy. I now take pre calc at the high school. I can honestly say that I never recieved help from my parents or anyone else, and I never went in for extra help during my middle school years. In high school, I will usually stop by the day before a test. Extra help in the high school is easier to go to becuase we do have periods 1-10 and some teachers are available during your free periods. In middle school, I think it is limited to the morning or afternoon.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I'm reading many things have changed within the math program. I am now a senior, and took the math A regents while in high school.( I can't remeber if it was in 9th or 10th grade, but i scored a 94)It looks as if many kids are taking them in 8th grade now. I never took accelerated math but have excelled in the math program at Irvington. I never had a problem with the teachers and always found regular math at IMS to be very easy. I now take pre calc at the high school. I can honestly say that I never recieved help from my parents or anyone else, and I never went in for extra help during my middle school years. In high school, I will usually stop by the day before a test. Extra help in the high school is easier to go to becuase we do have periods 1-10 and some teachers are available during your free periods. In middle school, I think it is limited to the morning or afternoon.
ReplyDeleteI felt that the middle school honors math classes were great. Ms. Urban was one of the best teachers I have ever had, to this day. The best thing baout the course was that it was incredibly difficult, and therefore self-selective. The students who didn't seem to be able to handle the pace or higher-level content dropped into the lower level math classes.
ReplyDeleteWhat seems terrible to me is the idea that the honors students need "honors" teachers, implying that the best should teach the best. Shouldn't the most gifted teachers be teaching the students who need them more? If there have to be better and worse teachers, shouldn't the best ones teach the kids who struggle the most?
I have been in honors math for my entire Irvington career (10 years), I have a 4.1 GPA, and I have been on high honor roll every quarter of my life. I have also been a teaching assistant for teachers in the high school for more than one subject. I have never had a tutor, never had any outside help other than the occasional visit to my teacher during a free period, and I STILL think our district has major problems with incompetant teachers.
ReplyDeleteOK, this is what I'm "on" about.
What I think I'm seeing is that, because Irvington is a self-selected population, with a very highly-educated parent population, we have a pretty large share of students like this commenter.
I know these kids!
These kids (and Commenter, correct me if I'm wrong) are largely "self-teaching."
They learn the material whether the teaching is good or not.
My sense is that IUFSD strips these kids off from all the other kids, "allows" them entry into Honors, etc....where not infrequently, and depending on the teacher, they seem to do a great deal of self-teaching.
The rest of the kids, may of whom fall into the bright-hard working group, have to be "carried" by parent reteachers and/or tutors.
I'm not sure that' right, but the very fact that I "see" it (or that I think it) is a problem.
No one in the district ever says to me, "We are committed to making sure all students reach the highest level of academic achievement."
AGAIN: I know I've now used the word "teaching" again....and yet I've said "this isn't about teachers."
What's happening here -- and this I'm positive is true -- is that we have a lot of teacher talent going to waste.
I know one teacher who spent an entire year of her life trying to get a straight answer to this question:
"Am I teaching for mastery, or am I teaching for coverage?"
SHE COULD NOT GET AN ANSWER.
"Teaching for mastery" means the school, through its teachers, makes sure students have actually learned the content covered in class.
"Teaching for coverage" means the school covers content, and if the student doesn't happen to master the content, too bad. The class moves on.
Enter the parent reteachers and tutors.
I was originally in accelerated math but decided to drop back in the 8th to spite my teachers wishes. Regular math was equally as difficult especially with larger class sizes and less one on one time. I struggled but it was fine when i entered highschool. I do notice alot of seniors now dropping out of pre-calculus right now because they find it too challenging to handle.
ReplyDeleteRight!
Right!
(Why did you spite your teacher???)
The district -- and this isn't an opinion, this is a fact; I've had this expressed to me openly by administrators & department chairs -- thinks that it's fine for lots of kids to be dropping out of pre-calc because "it's too hard."
"It's too hard" is always a judgment on the students, not the math department.
The district NEVER (though this may be changing) looks at what the student is bringing to the table in the way of ability, interest, and motivation.
If the student is "struggling," the student "doesn't belong."
Period.
The school does not - publicly - ask itself, "How can we keep these kids in pre-calc?"
Believe me, I have had direct conversations with the math department on this very issue.
Repeated conversations.
My sense is that things have gone pretty seriously downhill since Ms. Urban retired.
ReplyDeleteWhich is another issue - have you noticed that we hire only new young teachers at the bottom of the pay scale?
Those teachers may develop into very good teachers in time.
But it takes time for anyone to become an expert in any area of endeavor.
I know of at least two cases in which superb experienced math teachers were turned away.
The district refused to interview one; another was told that if he worked here he would have to take a pay cut down to 5th year salary.
OK, I have to go HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE THIS BLOG -- back later.
ReplyDeleteLet me know the blog link!
(As I mentioned, I haven't read the earlier posts closely - I will - )
Oh!
I should say this.
In all of our time in Irvington I would say that our one typical child has had 3 ineffective teachers, one of whom was a lovely lady, but just not a good teacher. (She wasn't given tenure.)
When I say this "isn't about the teachers" I really do mean it.
otoh, it IS about "the teaching" --- it's about the policies set for how teachers teach in the district.
Individual teachers defy these policies and teach to mastery.
Which is a heck of a lot harder to do.
(I also experienced a huge shift in practice and tone when we left K-5....we never had problems there)
As a high school student, it really distressed me when I heard about the contents of this blog. The gossip mill was going non stop, and people were saying how nice some of the people who wrote on this blog were, and how suprised they were that anyone who seemed so kind could write such horrible things about the teachers here. Now looking over the comments posted, I realize that some of the people who write here have valid concerns about the teaching methods and quality at our school. That said, the comments responding to a fellow student shocked me. Do you realize that you are attacking a bunch of students about grammar? I thought the purpose of this blog was to help educate the children who go to this district, to change the problem of inadequate teachers and inappropriate material handed out at assemblies, not to yell at them about their sentence structure. Atleast be kind enough not to belittle those who are just stating their opinion, as you do everyday. No matter what grammar is used, an opinion is valid by definition, and no matter how young or naive the person saying is, it matters. Perhaps the students attending Irvington know best about the teachers there? So maybe you should stop being so condescending and keep trying to solve the problems you so adequately describe on this blog. Perhaps Irvington does need a better math department, and maybe some better teachers, but the way to achieve that is not to bash those who are just writing from the other side of the argument.
ReplyDeleteHI!
ReplyDeleteThis thread is awfully long (I haven't read it closely myself yet), but I think most of the adult commenters have agreed with you that we don't want to be attacking students for punctuation, etc.
Definitely not.
And yes, students know a great deal about what's happening inside our schools.
Parents are locked out from the middle school. We're barely allowed inside the building, even.
And the response is often not good when we say that our kids are having problems. (This is many parents - I want to stress this point.)
The high school has a RADICALLY better tone --- I can't tell you the relief I feel when I walk inside that building.
I don't know, however, how much "meaningful input" parents have into educational practices at the high school.
It's a much, much more respectful place, but....do parents have "Shared Decision Making" at the h.s. as state law requires?
I'm pretty sure parents don't.
btw, I have had h.s. personnel tell me that the middle school has major, major problems.
ReplyDeleteThis really isn't a secret in the district.
AGAIN, I feel bad saying this, because the middle school has many very good teachers -- we have had problems with only two teachers in two years.
The school does not have educational leadership.
"Shouldn't the most gifted teachers be teaching the students who need them more?"
ReplyDeleteI think this turns out to be a very difficult question.
First, how much correlation is there between the skills needed to be a good teacher of gifted kids, a good teacher of typical kids, and a good teacher of remedial-level kids. I think there is some, but I don't really know how much.
Second, which is more important: Getting the most from the best or getting the most from the worst? And how much does good teaching (or bad teaching) change the results for each of those groups?
I don't think there is an obviously correct answer to any of those questions. And they're pretty important questions to be able to answer. If you can suggest a method by which these various goals could be compared, the answer might be easier to determine. I'm afraid I don't have such a method at this time, but I assure you I'll be thinking about it.
"At least be kind enough not to belittle those who are just stating their opinion, as you do everyday. No matter what grammar is used, an opinion is valid by definition, and no matter how young or naive the person saying is, it matters."
ReplyDeleteI think this attitude is deeply wrong-headed. The "validity" of an opinion is fundamentally uninteresting. If you have the opinion that astrology reflects deep truths about the universe, I can't argue that you have that opinion. That says nothing about the value of that opinion to any reasoned discussion.
We are not holding sensitivity orientations here; we are discussing politics. And "politics ain't beanbag". If you wish to emote, feel free. I will feel free to ridicule content-free emoting.
If wish to avoid ridicule for content-free emoting, it's easy enough to set up your own free forum.
In point of fact, and contrary to what you've probably been told repeatedly*, there are stupid questions and stupid opinions. Such deserve refutation and, occasionally, ridicule.
Make a substantive comment and you'll receive a substantive reply if the comment is interesting enough. Make enough substantive comments and you'll earn respect. Make a series of substance-free comment and your reception will be less charitable.
Finally, I (and I think others here) would really appreciate it if each separate commenter could choose a unique name. It's entirely reasonable that you've chosen to use something other than your real name; I might do the same thing were I in HS. But a consistent pseudonym makes conversation much more reasonable.
ReplyDeleteI hope you tell your child that there are "stupid questions and opinions".....
ReplyDeleteThe administration gave a presentation to the School Board saying that not one black or Hispanic student had passed the 8th grade assessments last year. (They were only talking about last year, 8th grade kids.)
ReplyDeleteSome of my friends think that can't possibly be right.....
Is the administration wrong?
Yes it is wrong. 8th grade students take 5 state tests (English-Language Arts, Math, Science, Social Studies and Foreign Language in that order). Check the results and you will find all African-American and Hispanic students at IMS did not fail all these tests.
btw, I have had h.s. personnel tell me that the middle school has major, major problems.
ReplyDeleteThis really isn't a secret in the district.
Funny, I'v been told the same about the high school by middle school personnel. In both cases, I find it pathetic that a parent would seek to get such information and even more pathetic that a staff member in a school would ever bash their fellow staff members to the community. By the way, those same high school teachers often bash their own administration. Be careful what you wish for in going to the high school. The "greener grass" also has the department head so often taken to task here.
First of all, Ms. Johnson, if you're going to complain about education you might as well complain about the whole country and not just our school, because in terms of the rest of the world, our school is not alone. We've got the rest of the US in the gutter with us.
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER, through middle school I went through accelerated math and did average in that class (B+, A-) with some extra help from the teacher every now and then.
In terms of helping your child with homework, I dont think that's such a bad thing. I mean parents can help... but the way your saying it I get the feeling you actually taught and didnt just help so in that case, well I guess it was necessary.
The thing I've noticed is that most kids (and this is probably not the case with yours) tend to be lazy on a general term. A lot of the time students dont try hard enough. I feel that's part of the problem, that the teachers are doing a perfectly good time teaching, but the kids dont say anything when they dont understand something. I'm sure teachers find it frustrating when they see bad grades on a test, and they tell people that they can come in for help but they dont. It must be so hard to see a kid struggling with something, and not knowing what's wrong because he/she wont say anything...
at least, thats the way I feel about it
sorry, forgot to mention...
ReplyDeleteI think if your going to have a discussion with parents teachers and students it should take place live and not just on a blog. While the internet is a great tool for instant communication, its hard to convey an issue properly without being able to see each other, at least for somethings...
"So maybe you should stop being so condescending and keep trying to solve the problems you so adequately describe on this blog."
ReplyDelete"You" who?
Anonymous (?) fails two debating rules; picking and choosing what to respond to, and using the plural form of you. Some of us do keep trying to talk about substance.
By the way, I agree with Doug. I make sure my son knows the difference between opinion and facts. He won't confuse the two or he will hear about it from me. I make sure he knows that there are some questions and opinions that will cause the word "stupid" to pop into everyone's head. Opinions have to be filtered through the brain and there has to be some content and skills inside to do the filtering.
[At a school my son used to be at, the headmaster wanted to have kids get together once a week to talk about current events. I told him that the time would be better spent studying history.]
Actually, fact versus opinion is one of the major reasons for the existence of KTM. Schools seem to be very big on developing kids' opinions even though they are based on very little knowledge or skills. They call this discovery.
Much of the K-6 math that is taught is based on the opinion that discovery is the best approach to lerning math. Their opinion is that mastery of basic skills is not necessary at any particular point in time. Educators constantly say "research shows" without having the facts to back it up. They select math curricula based on opinion, and then try to find anything to support that opinion. Parents (some of whom are experts in math, engineering, and science) disagree professionally, but get ignored by the schools.
Opinion trumps knowledge.
The school is in charge and the parents are not.
That is why this blog sometimes veers away from math. The problem is not just math. The problem has to do with opinion and who gets to decide. It has to do with process and accountability. It has to do with choice, money, power, control, and politics.
".. the teachers are doing a perfectly good time teaching, but the kids dont say anything when they dont understand something."
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned many times on this blog, by the time you get to middle school, everything looks like it can be blamed on the student and/or parents. Why? Because there are always some kids who do well and some kids who are obviously not doing the work.
The problem with math education is not defined by just one snapshot of one middle school class. It has to do with everything that came before. If schools don't enforce mastery of basic skills in earlier grades (and most don't), then either the student has to be a math brain or get help at home to do well in math. This is a major point of KTM. We have discussed over and over and over how bad K-6 math curricula are, but there is no process for change and schools do not like any curriculum input from parents, even if they are experts. The so-called math wars have been going on for years and years. I've seen it first hand with my son. I've tried to work within the system for years, as have many commenters here at KTM.
You really need to read through much more of KTM before commenting on what we have or haven't done about the issue of math education.
"I find it pathetic that a parent would seek to get such information"
ReplyDeleteI find it remarkable that any parent wouldn't seek to get such information and appalling that any school would try to prevent the dissemination of that information. Do you really believe that a parent shouldn't know, and shouldn't try to find out, that his child is being academically abused by the school system?
Frankly, that's disgusting. What other sorts of child abuse would you prefer were continued?
Color me cynical, but are people really assuming that every one of these anonymous commenters are really students, and that no administrators are wearing sheep's clothing here?
ReplyDeleteIt's very easy to come in anonymously, throw punches, then say "don't hit me - I'm a student!" It's a great way to un-level the playing field.
"I hope you tell your child that there are 'stupid questions and opinions'."
ReplyDeleteI'd be please to use, "I find it pathetic that a parent would seek to get such information", as the very Platonic ideal of a stupid opinion.
Frankly, that's disgusting. What other sorts of child abuse would you prefer were continued?
ReplyDeleteFrankly, THAT opinion is disgusting. I don't care how upset you are about your child's education, you are grossly trivializing real sexual and physical trauma that some children go through by comparing ineffective instruction with a devastating childhood experience. That really bothers me, and I think you ought to apologize for that appalling lack of sensitivity, and, if you seriously believe that is a valid comparison, rethink your values. I've stayed out of this and read this thread as an interested outsider, since it seems internal to Irvington, but that comment really offends me.
Plus, as one who was chastising students for their argument skills, you are hardly providing a shining example of how to do so, logically or civilly.
Cranky,
ReplyDeleteWe're not just discussing children's education, we're also talking about grossly inappropriate pamphlets that 11-year olds could read. In some quarters, people could get arrested for such things. Yet, under the guise of "health" parents are just supposed to shut up and take it.
I've known Doug for a couple of years here. If you're going to talk about the "major, major problems" in schools and how "pathetic" parents are to care, then expect him to give as good as he gets.
Many of the anon posts have had a nasty, accusatory streak to them, you must admit, yet, as Brett said, they are hyper-sensitive when taken to task for it.
I would also have to agree with Brett that it's possible that we have some parents posting here, as well. That's fine, but you can still be anon and have a name instead of playing some ambush game.
For what it's worth, I posted a much nicer maternal post earlier when it looked like a bunch of kids were coming on. I was ignored since they all decided to chastize Doug for not being nice enough.
It's very easy to come in anonymously, throw punches, then say "don't hit me - I'm a student!" It's a great way to un-level the playing field.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point. That's why I said that it wouldnt be such a bad idea to meet in person.
FYI I am acutally a hs student.
hs student,
ReplyDeleteWe'd love to meet, but we're all over the country in different states.
I'm really appreciating the math testimonials some of you are leaving. I hope more will come on to tell us their experiences, good or bad.
I would also love to know how prepared you felt when you went from middle school to high school, or even from grade school to middle school. Did your grade reflect your ability when you got there?
The one problem with wrestling a pig is you both get dirty.
ReplyDeleteLogic?
Debating rules?
Spelling errors?
Grammar?
Name calling?
What a lovely flame-fest!
And you wonder why schools and school districts don't take you seriously?
Oh, I didn't get my way so I will post how terrible my school is on the internet. That is really childish whether you play be "pretend" debating rules or not.
How long has this been going on? Has it had any positive outcome in any of your schools? You guys are a bunch of heart attacks waiting to happen! Go outside and play with your children. They might teach you something, an appreciation of life and love instead of this toxic waste dump you call a blog.
"What a lovely flame-fest!"
ReplyDeleteAs J.P. Jones almost said, I have not yet begun to flame. Besides, that would just be feeding the trolls. If you have a substantive comment, feel free to make one. And I'd be more inclined to listen were you to use a consistent pseudonym.
Oh, and logic and debating rules turn out to be quite useful in adult discussions. (Not used as much as they should be, but useful, nonetheless. Why are you so offended by them?
Cranky: "...you are grossly trivializing real sexual and physical trauma that some children go through by comparing ineffective instruction with a devastating childhood experience."
ReplyDeleteGrossly inadequate education has a devastating effect through most victims' entire lives. I think the comparison is apt and I stand by it.
"That really bothers me, and I think you ought to apologize for that appalling lack of sensitivity, and, if you seriously believe that is a valid comparison, rethink your values. I've stayed out of this and read this thread as an interested outsider, since it seems internal to Irvington, but that comment really offends me."
Noted; disagreed with. Next.
"Plus, as one who was chastising students for their argument skills, you are hardly providing a shining example of how to do so, logically or civilly."
If you have specific comments, please feel free to state them. Otherwise:
Noted; disagreed with. Next.
What a lovely flame-fest!
ReplyDeleteHey, and that's just your post.
First of all, Ms. Johnson, if you're going to complain about education you might as well complain about the whole country and not just our school, because in terms of the rest of the world, our school is not alone. We've got the rest of the US in the gutter with us.
ReplyDeleteABSOLUTELY.
(Though I wouldn't put us in the gutter!)
This is absolutely true.
Our district has the same core issue all public schools (and probably most private schools??) have, which is that the school isn't responsible for student learning.
Schools teach for coverage, not for mastery.
You are completely right.
Noted; disagreed with. Next.
ReplyDeleteI guess that is the motto schools and school districts have adopted with your collective math reform wisdom.
Noted; disagreed with. There's the door.
Yes it is wrong. 8th grade students take 5 state tests (English-Language Arts, Math, Science, Social Studies and Foreign Language in that order). Check the results and you will find all African-American and Hispanic students at IMS did not fail all these tests.
ReplyDeleteThe administration gave data only about ELA and math --- it's up on edline now ---
That's what I was asking about.
I have a close friend who thinks data on 8th grade ELA & math state assessments is wrong ----
Glad to hear kids are passing the other tests, of course.
The thing I've noticed is that most kids (and this is probably not the case with yours) tend to be lazy on a general term. A lot of the time students dont try hard enough.
ReplyDeleteI agree!
Here's where I have a different idea of school from most people's idea.
When I say that the school should hold itself accountable for student learning, I also mean that when the school has an unmotivated student, the school needs to respond -- the school needs to teach the student it has.
One of the teachers who comments here, "ms. teacher," has many students who don't do homework.
She has responded (I hope she'll correct me if I'm misstating) by seeing to it that her students do the work they need to do at school.
I'll have to track down the "La Salle High School" link.
"La Salle High School" (pseudonym) is apparently one of the best high schools in the country.
La Salle had a specific way of dealing with unmotivated kids --- a highly structured study hall with aides who knew what homework the kids were supposed to be doing.
My core belief is that the school should teach the students it has.
Some students are "lazy" (I prefer unmotivated!) --- so the school should figure out how best to teach those kids.
I also wonder whether some of what looks like laziness is students feeling they can't do the work well...
Wait!
ReplyDeleteWait!
Was cranky referring to Doug???
I'm confused.
"I guess that is the motto schools and school districts have adopted with your collective math reform wisdom."
ReplyDeleteSome have, some haven't. My son is in a school using the Saxon curriculum. It works well.
TERC, EM, Mathland? Not so much.
"Noted; disagreed with. There's the door."
Great. Give me my money back so I can find somebody competent to teach my son. Until that's an option, the school's curriculum is a matter of public interest.
That means that the public (that would be the "public" part of "public interest") gets to make comments about matters of concern (those would be the "interest[s]" part of "public interest").
Funny how that works, isn't it?
Finally, from the lack of response, I take it that you have no actual arguments to advance about the substance of my comment? That's noted, too.
Funny, I'v been told the same about the high school by middle school personnel.
ReplyDelete!!!!!
Be careful what you wish for in going to the high school. The "greener grass" also has the department head so often taken to task here.
I am well aware of that.
I have had two encounters with said department head, neither of which went well.
That's why I said that it wouldnt be such a bad idea to meet in person.
ReplyDeleteFYI I am acutally a hs student.
I think that's a good idea.
I'd like to meet in person.
ReplyDeletePS: Doug, your debating skills are amazing (even though i disagree with some of your opinions).
I can't figure out how to do quotes here and it rejects my attempts at HTML (italics) so I hope you can tell what comments of Catherine's I'm replying to. I separated her remarks from mine with line spaces.
ReplyDeleteMy core belief is that the school should teach the students it has.
Absolutely. Unfortunately district level instruction gurus fail to look at the specifics of the actual kids in the classroom. The students bring different backgrounds and skills to the table and so need different teaching in many cases. My school has many diverse learners from a variety of third-world backgrounds and we are identified as a school in need of improvement. The "improvement team" (all white middle class "experts" who never taught elementary or middle school) come in with the "strategies" that work in well-to-do areas (supposedly) and show us films of kids in Montgomery County, Md. or wherever doing wonderful things. There is a disconnect with reality.
Some students are "lazy" (I prefer unmotivated!) --- so the school should figure out how best to teach those kids
On the other hand, some of the teachers ( most from minority backgrounds themselves) see all too well what the students need to be taught to be successful and go ahead and do it, sub rosa of course. Their students reliably make marked progress and, amazingly, appear to be "motivated."
I also wonder whether some of what looks like laziness is students feeling they can't do the work well
Indeed, I see this a lot. Nothing "motivates" kids more than being successful and feeling an increasing sense of mastery over something difficult (why do you suppose video games are so compelling? The thrill of improvement and competence is one reason). When they can see they are learning kids often are willing to work very hard indeed.BTW,Providing time and supervision for homework at school is an excellent move. We do this for students in 4-8. It is a structured after-school setting with teachers and high school students to assist.
"I can't figure out how to do quotes here and it rejects my attempts at HTML (italics)"
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the blockquote tag is disabled in this commenting system*, but italics are done like this:
<i>This is italic text</i>
Also, if you compose your comment offline on a tool that uses "smart quotes" (different characters for left and right quotes), the characters will not show up in a comment as quotes.
ps. Faking the tags was the most annoying part of writing this.
* When I tried to preview a comment with that tag, the system dropped it into the bit bucket.
"Doug, your debating skills are amazing..."
ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliment. I attribute much of that to deep domain knowledge and lots of practice debating. (It turns out that "useless facts" are pretty useful and "drill and kill" won't actually kill you. Take that, constructivists! 8-)
"... (even though i disagree with some of your opinions)."
Well, having acolytes and sycophants is fun, but after a while the bowing and scraping, the fawning, the bootlicking ... they get to be a bit tedious.
Seriously, substantive disagreement is (well, can be) really useful. Sometimes you find out you were wrong all along (which isn't much fun, but it's not finding out is worse) and sometimes explaining why you were right all along allows you to tighten up your arguments for the next time the subject comes up.
Catherine Johnson go clean your kitchen.
ReplyDeleteanother high school student said . . .
ReplyDelete"Catherine Johnson go clean your kitchen"
It is comments like this one that make me wonder if this student is incapable of engaging in a debate on anything approaching substance.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"How long has this been going on? Has it had any positive outcome in any of your schools? You guys are a bunch of heart attacks waiting to happen! Go outside and play with your children. They might teach you something, an appreciation of life and love instead of this toxic waste dump you call a blog."
Wow! Troll alert! This can't be a student.
And I'm still waiting for substance. That doesn't mean I'm waiting for something that I agree with. It means that I'm waiting for something that deals with curriculum, teaching methods, accountability, assumptions, or expectations.
Flaming tends to generate responses in kind. Substance generates substance.
"It is comments like this one that make me wonder if this student is incapable of engaging in a debate on anything approaching substance."
ReplyDeleteI suspect s/he/it is in tenth grade and one would have to make allowances for sophomoric remarks.
As it has been said before, we parents are quite capable of handling the sex education part, thank you.
ReplyDeleteAWESOME. Then when can teachers stop teaching it? Got a timeline on that Steve?
Steve, if what you were saying was fact, not opinion, then every teacher in the country would be a bit happier today. Unfortunately, your opinion is in the minority so the school system is stuck with the messy subject area.
"Unfortunately, your opinion is in the minority.."
ReplyDeleteHow do you know this? What specific content are you talking about? How to be a safe lesbian in middle school?
"...so the school system is stuck with the messy subject area."
How do you know it's making any difference? In the case of Irvington, they screwed it up badly. I had to watch "Refer Madness" when I was in school.
It would be one thing if parents were completely informed beforehand and it was opt-in, but in most cases, it isn't. This strikes at the heart of most school-parent issues: who is in charge? It's not the parents.
I want to make teachers happy and I want to make parents happy. Choice is the solution.
If the administration of the Irvington School system felt like the children in their care were learning the crucial information they need to make educated decisions from another source (preferably the parents or guardians of the children), then they would not need to teach them these kinds of things. Middle school aged children are just hitting puberty, and likely to experiment based on instincts (it is after all the way we, like most other animals, are designed). This is obviously inadvisable, but without proper guidance and knowledge of possible risks (both emotional and physical), they are likely to make mistakes. I do agree that the principal could have done a better job of dealing with this matter, but I do not believe that the school has done anything wrong in educating children in an area in which they are seriously lacking in knowledge. Although I have not seen the pamphlets, I have spoken to several students who have, and did not believe that the material was inappropriate for children of that age.
ReplyDeleteParents need prior knowledge and they need choice.
ReplyDelete"I have spoken to several students who have, and did not believe that the material was inappropriate for children of that age."
This is not adequate justification.
There are four issues: content, grade level, how well it's done, and choice.
The big one is choice.
If the administration of the Irvington School system felt like the children in their care were learning the crucial information they need to make educated decisions from another source (preferably the parents or guardians of the children), then they would not need to teach them these kinds of things.
ReplyDeleteUntil now, I've not felt it necessary to add to this conversation. However, this really crosses the line for me. The school has no idea what these children know or do not know. This is a clear lack of respect for the role of parents and it diminishes the relationship between parent and child.
What is considered "crucial information", "proper guidance", necessary "knowledge" and/or "inappropriate" is at the discretion of the parent, not the school, nor the state. Parents should certainly have a voice and a choice in what their children are taught particularly in such a personal matter such as this.
This should not be the role of a teacher. Please let them teach academic content instead of using valuable teaching time for something that is clearly a parent's responsibility. The consequences of how they choose to teach their children is their own responsibility. To fail to obtain prior consent, communicate what will be taught with parents beforehand, or establish clear guidelines for the teaching of sexual education, is irresponsible and patently wrong.
Just as it is inappropriate for schools to impose a particular religion or political ideology upon the children in their charge, it is equally inappropriate for schools to teach human sexuality in such a random and careless manner.
In Fairfax County, VA, the school district sometimes conducts surveys of students about drug use and sexual activities. Prior to doing so they notify the parents of such survey, state that there will be questions of this nature and asks for parents' permission to allow the student to participate in such survey. I think this is the type of choice Steve H is alluding to and one which was not exercised in the case of the pamphlets. No one was notified, no one saw the pamphlets, and no parent was consulted as to whether they felt such material was appropriate or not.
ReplyDelete"What is considered 'crucial information', 'proper guidance', necessary 'knowledge' and/or 'inappropriate' is at the discretion of the parent, not the school, nor the state. Parents should certainly have a voice and a choice in what their children are taught particularly in such a personal matter such as this."
ReplyDeleteVery well said.
There is a certain amount of arrogance hidden behind the idea that somebody has to do it, and that they (schools, county) have the knowledge and skills to do it. We see this in math, where schools are supposed to know something about the subject, but only teach math via their own pedagogical opinion. When parents (who are experts in the content) complain, they are ignored.
It's the same idea. Schools 10, Parents 0.
The key sticking point is prior knowledge and choice; not just with sex education, but everything.
i like cheese
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteCatherine Johnson go clean your kitchen.
ReplyDeleteHEY!
How did you know what my kitchen looks like???
I do not believe that the school has done anything wrong in educating children in an area in which they are seriously lacking in knowledge. Although I have not seen the pamphlets, I have spoken to several students who have, and did not believe that the material was inappropriate for children of that age.
ReplyDeleteThe administration agrees that the pamphlets were inappropriate and shouldn't have been distributed.
I know it seems as if the administration should choose, without consulting parents or taxpayers, to educate kids on things that you or I want them educated on.
But turn it around.
I don't know what your particular politics or values are, but suppose the administration decided, without consulting parents or taxpayers, that Irvington students need education in safe handling of firearms, because they are so lacking in this information.
I think we can all agree that Irvington kids lack knowledge of the proper handling of firearms.
Is it therefore good for the administration to put in a firearm program regardless of whether parents want their children to learn about guns?
I'm guessing you would probably say it wasn't (I don't know, of course).
The fact is that parents and taxpayers are paying the bills, and the bills here are very steep. The administration is hired and employed by the community, through its elected representatives on the board.
They work for us.
I know that's not the way administrators usually see it, or the way students see it, but that is the contractual arrangement.
The other thing I've only recently become aware of is that here in New York we have a law requiring Shared Decision Making.
Parents are supposed to have shared decision making authority -- with teachers and administrators.
That's parents, not board members (the board is a separate entity).
Parents here have no shared decision making at all.
The school has no idea what these children know or do not know. This is a clear lack of respect for the role of parents and it diminishes the relationship between parent and child.
ReplyDeleteYes, and this is a problem shared by the media and by some, not all, of the new commenters here.
An assumption has simply been made that Irvington kids know nothing about sexuality at all, that their parents have no competence to teach them these things, and that Irvington kids are incapable of acquiring this knowledge on their own.
The administration, by the way, does not share this view.
Their position is that 8th graders do not need to know the content in these brochures.
I think this is important for everyone to understand: the school says students should not have seen these brochures.
Comments from "Some more high school seniors" beg for a response in kind. I won't bite.
ReplyDeleteSome of us have been trying to talk about real issues, not tone. All you have to do is back up a few comments. You don't do yourselves any favors by using broad brush arguments and accusing people of slander. You have to be specific and back it up.
I expect you to state exactly what slander you're referring to, who said it, and explain how it meets that definition. In the meantime, you should investigate why many states have "Anti-SLAPP Suit" statutes to protect citizens' rights to free speech.
Perhaps you can also see how this slander compares with what is in your post(s?).
I've just deleted the "more high school seniors" comment.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is welcome to comment.
But you're going to keep a civil tongue and stick to the issues.
My comment won't make sense because the other comment was deleted.
ReplyDeleteoh, sorry!
ReplyDeleteI didn't even read the whole thing -- did they get into slander?
That street runs two ways.
As I think you've just pointed out.
ReplyDelete"Some more high school seniors", writing in first person singular said:
ReplyDelete"I think that you parents are embarassing (sic) our town and our school disctrict (sic) and it is shameful."
Noted. Since no actual argument is offered, no further response is necessary. But since parents have a contractual obligation to embarrass their children, I'm not sure I see the problem.
"I happen to love all my teachers, even the ones from middle school, even the ones you are bashing."
I'm sure you love your family, and your pets, and your country, too. What is the relevance of this little factoid to the instant discussion?
"How can you call yourselves responsible parents and attempt to be a respectable role model when you are publicly slandering teachers on the internet."
Slander has a very specific meaning. When discussing matters of public interest, it requires "actual malice", a legal term of art meaning "with knowledge of the falsity of the statement or with reckless disregard for its truth or falsity". Such a claim is risible.
"That seems to remind me of middle school drama...Grow up."
It "seems" to remind you? If it's not actually reminding you, what is it doing? And "[g]row up" is simply content-free argumentum ad hominem. Poor show, old chap.
"Also, stop jumping on students' backs when they make a silly typing error."
Addressed repeatedly. Read the thread if you wish to comment.
"I got a five on my advanced placement english exam,..."
Argument from irrelevant authority. This basic logical fallacy is easily avoidable by sticking to relevant comments.
"...but I still make errors and I am sure all you pathetic parents do as well."
"[P]athetic"? I don't notice much pathos in your comment. That makes this another ad hom.
"I value my education here in Irvington and I have learned a lot, beyond just mere textbook information but life lessons as well."
To the extent that I can unravel that, I'll respond: What evidence do you have that your education has been efficient? You've spent (probably) 12+ years in school; have you learned as much in that time as you could have with a different curriculum? Since Catherine has reported a change in middle-school and elementary-school curricula in the past few years, why do you think your experience is the same as the experience of those in school now? And what are these "life lessons" that you proudly adduce as "evidence" of the quality of Irvington schools?
"So don't you dare nationally embarass (sic) my school and my teachers and think it's OK..."
By the available evidence the administration of IMS is utterly incapable of shame or embarrassment. Even were that not so, why should your commandment have any force?
"...because then you have another thing coming."
And what "thing" would that be?
I don't know whether students are aware of this, but the issue of teachers, tenure, & teacher effectiveness were front and center during the Board election.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things we were told, during the candidate forum, was that teachers in Irvington (and this is true elsewhere, I know) have never really been evaluated by their supervisors.
We were told, as I recall, that if you looked inside their personnel files you wouldn't see much there.
Teachers here (and elsewhere) are not evaluated according to how well their students learn the material being taught.
Nor are promotion decisions being made on this basis.
Then when can teachers stop teaching it?
ReplyDeleteDoes Irvington teach sex ed?
NY state doesn't mandate it; I suspect we don't teach it.
The brochures weren't sex ed. They were just a bunch of brochures from County; the school didn't intend for them to be there.
"I won't bite."
ReplyDeleteI did.
"I've just deleted the "more high school seniors" comment."
Sorry; my response crossed with your deletion. Feel free to delete my response if you think that would be better.
because then you have another thing coming
ReplyDeleteIf you can't even sign your name to an implied threat, you have no business making one.
You have no business making implied threats in any case.
In any case, you should be aware that threats very often have the opposite of the intended effect.
Sorry; my response crossed with your deletion. Feel free to delete my response if you think that would be better.
ReplyDeletenope, yours is staying!
Why did I say "in any case" twice?
ReplyDeleteI probably wouldn't get a 5 on my AP test.
Doug, how did you learn how to debate? I ask because I want to teach my kids these skills and I am not sure where to start. I know logic plays a central role and we have done programs such as "Mind Benders". Where does one go to learn the names of the logical fallacies? Does anyone know of programs for Middle School age students that would teach this? Thanks Jane Deau
ReplyDeleteThere is no way that the candidates had access to personnel files. A candidate can and will say anything during a debate and no one is allowed to correct inaccurate information. It is completely misguided and unfair to state as fact that teachers on a tenure track are not evaluated.
ReplyDeleteJane,
ReplyDeleteMatthew Lipman "Philosophy for Kids" is a complete K12 philosophy curriculum in which this is taught. It is not taught directly as in "memorize the following fallacies" but instead the child is exposed to dialogs of children discussing various topics in which the children commit various fallacies. The teacher's manual explains to the teacher what the fallacies are and proposes ways of guiding the child through the dialog.
The fifth/sixth grade level is the best and is called "Harry Stottlemeier."
A quicker way would be to get involved in no holds bar debates on usenet.
The fifth/sixth grade level is the best and is called "Harry Stottlemeier.
ReplyDeleteHarry Stottlemeir is part of my daughter's homeschool curriculum. It's fantastic. I wish I'd learned this when I was in fifth grade. My daughter is thoroughly enjoying the program and we recommend it highly.
Jane Deau,
ReplyDeleteThere is a website that explains the logical fallacies (I actually think it is some athiest site.) Anyway, my son loved it when he was around 11. He would come home from school and talk about all of the fallacies he heard. It's a great time to learn those things.
Doug has a logical fallacy bingo that we had at the old KTM site. Catherine has it listed, I think. I'm not sure where you'd find it, but I think it's still over there.
I also signed my son up for a debate class at a nearby university for kids his age. He is loving that, too, because it is forcing him to back up his opinions. There might be something nearby you, as well.
"The fifth/sixth grade level is the best and is called 'Harry Stottlemeier.'"
ReplyDeleteThanks for the recommendation, Myrtle!
SteveH, It's really important to have the instructional manual to accompany the student book: Philosophical Inquiry: An Instructional Manual to Accompany Harry Stottlemeier's Discovery (ISBN 0-8191-3830-4). It may be a little trickier to find. Great Books Academy bookstore (online) carries the series and if you're lucky you can find a resell copy on Amazon for much less.
ReplyDelete"Doug, how did you learn how to debate? I ask because I want to teach my kids these skills and I am not sure where to start. I know logic plays a central role and we have done programs such as "Mind Benders". Where does one go to learn the names of the logical fallacies? Does anyone know of programs for Middle School age students that would teach this? Thanks Jane Deau"
ReplyDeleteWell, it helps to be naturally combative. 8-)
My whole family is argumentative, so debate started around the dinner table when I was young. From that, it was a natural progression to debate team in HS, usenet debates, blog fiskings ....
In many ways, though, those just provided the impetus to learn. When you are 16, rhetorically besting your parents is a shining ring that is worth the work necessary to grab.
IMO, the biggest thing to remember is to treat your opponent's argument with respect. Don't skip the hard issues; they're often the core of the argument. But don't skip the easy bits either; they add rhetorical force. And concede the point when you are wrong -- fighting for lost points decreases your credibility.
Logical fallacies are largely codifications of common sense. The big advantage of studying them is that you can more easily find the hidden fallacies and understand why you think an argument is flawed.
A Google search on "logical fallacies" turns up lots of hits. Some logical fallacies sites that I've actually visited and found useful:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Finally, when writing stating a thesis rather than rebutting one, it can be useful to know a bit about rhetorical devices. This site seems to do a decent job of discussing them:
http://www.virtualsalt.com/rhetoric.htm
Don't worry too much about about the Greek or Latin names of fallacies or rhetorical devices. When you know the concept, you know what you need to.
Harry Stottlemeier's Discovery:
ReplyDeletehttps://cehs2.montclair.edu/store/customer/product.php?productid=16194
A nice description of the program:
http://www.academybookstore.org/GBAStore/Detail.bok?no=5443
There is no way that the candidates had access to personnel files. A candidate can and will say anything during a debate and no one is allowed to correct inaccurate information. It is completely misguided and unfair to state as fact that teachers on a tenure track are not evaluated.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I should clarify this.
Candidates did not look at personnel files.
This particular observation was well sourced.
Teachers on tenure track are not evaluated on the basis of student achievement. We (and other schools) do not include measures showing that Teacher A is more effective than Teacher B.
Also, the school board does not have a policy of evaluating tenure cases on this basis.
hey - does anyone know how to close a thread?
ReplyDeleteanother thing to figure out
Go to the window in which you can edit this blog entry. At the bottom of the edit screen you'll see "comment options"
ReplyDeleteThere is a "don't allow comments" option. I haven't tried it yet, but it's there.
Do you know if you can do it for just one thread??
ReplyDeleteI would be sick if all the comments disappeared.
I'll go try it on my blog on one of the older posts and come back and let you know what happens.
ReplyDeleteGo to the individual blog entry where it says "edit entry" NOT "settings" which affects all entries.
ReplyDeleteThen go to "Post Options" at the bottom of the edit window.
You'll see three options once you click on "post options"
"Allow comments"
"Don't allow, hide existing"
"Don't allow, show existing"
Select the one you want. When I chose "don't allow, show existing" it simply removed the icon for posting comments, but it didn't erase current comments.
oh, fantastic - thanks
ReplyDeleteI'll try it on an empty post ---
it worked!
ReplyDeletethanks!
gosh...I have to remember where all this advice about logical fallacy books is...MUST RECORD....
OK, I can do it!
ReplyDeleteA couple of members have emailed saying it's time to wrap this thread up ---so I'm using the disallow comments command, now that I know where and what it is.
Everybody's welcome to comment on other posts, especially students!