I probably won't be able to find his comment now, but I believe lrg has raised the question of whether student performance and school quality have in fact declined over the years or whether performance has remained the same while expectations have risen.
The answer is that performance has declined at all levels, including the top, although -- and this will strike most of us around here as ironic -- I think it's possible that performance in math may actually have risen in students who take the SAT. There is no question that performance on reading tests has declined across the board.
I spent quite a long time wondering about this issue myself. Had American schools really declined or did people just think they had? I became especially curious about this question after reading an edu-blogger's post saying that American schools "serve rich white kids well." (The original post seems to have been deleted from the blogger's archives.)
That struck me as wrong, but I didn't know.
For quite awhile I was on the lookout for evidence concerning advantaged white students, a phrase I prefer to "rich white kids." Eventually I learned that this question had been asked and answered. The decline is real. It started in 1969 and ended in the early 1980s.
Best sources for a quick trip through what has taken place:
Verbal, Math and Combined scores 1962-2001
SAT scores were "recentered" in 1995. Today's SAT-V scores are roughly 70 to 80 points higher than the same score prior to 1995: SAT I Individual Score Equivalents.
Best primer on decline in student achievement: Waiting for Utopia
decline at the top
The recentering of SAT scores is a major factor in suburban parents' perception that their children are attending high-quality schools. No one in the wider public knows the scores have changed -- and school districts don't make a habit of filling parents in on the real value of a 600 on the SAT-V.
A 600 today was a 520 in 1994. Same test, same raw score, different conversion formula.
No one knows. Parents "read" their kids' scores through the filter of their own scores back in the day.
more on SAT-M later
also see:
The Seeds of Growth
There are still plenty of top kids--I know, I teach lots of them.
ReplyDeleteThere were always weak students. Years ago, they took vocational and general courses and did not take SATs. Now, every kid is told they can be lawyers, doctors, etc so they all take SAT's and all these academic courses.
Maybe a 600 today is only equivalent to a 520 in the past, but that is only a number and doesn't mean much.
I have the Iowa Spelling Scales from the 1920's and 1950's. The 1920's one is in the common domain, you can see the scores at Google Books (grades 2 - 8): http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC11594271&id=3voAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA8&lpg=RA1-PA8&dq=iowa+spelling+scale&as_brr=1#PPP1,M1
ReplyDeleteThe 1950's data is not in the common domain, but is in a book which I have a copy of, I compared all the words starting with a in both tests, there was about a 2 grade level drop by 1950. This corresponds to the 2 grade level difference noted in this study comparing phonetically taught Scottish children to American children in the 1960's: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0013-5984(196603)66%3A6%3C337%3ASAOSAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-L The 1920's data were slightly lower in the lower grades from the Ayres spelling data from the early 1900's, they had started some whole word teaching in the lower grades in Iowa at that time.
Don Potter has a nice pdf copy of the Ayres spelling scale, you can use it to determine for a single student or a whole class how they compare to children in the early 1900's, most of whom were taught with phonics: http://www.donpotter.net/PDF/Ayres%20Spelling%20Scale.pdf
(Don has a lot of great stuff on his website, no everyday math or sight words there! http://www.donpotter.net) He also has some good YouTube movies about how to teach phonics, and he's making more all the time, search donlpotter at YouTube.
The Iowa 1920 scores are particularly interesting when you look at the number of words for which the upper grades scored 100% (minimum number of students used for each word, 200.) The list for 7th grade is a page long, for 8th grade, 2 pages long.
ReplyDeleteHere's a few of the 100% correct words for 8th graders in Iowa in the early 1920's: above, afternoon, anything, bought, children, contest, darling, decline, greater, hunting, important, leader, lives, membership, nobody, nothing, overcoat, request, sample, somewhat, thanking, thousand, understanding, willing, working, yellow.
And, these were not multiple choice. This was having the teacher use the word in a sentence and the students wrote the word. Try that with public students today and I don't think you would get two pages worth of 100% correct words.
It really is worth looking through, both the Iowa scale and the Ayres scale, just to see what was accomplished then.
The Iowa scale has more words, but the Ayres scale has instructions about how to test and compare students based on statistically tested word lists.
ReplyDeleteThe recentered SAT debuted during my junior year of HS; I decided to take it six months early to ensure that I got the old test.
ReplyDeleteProof yet again that, even as a teenager, I was already a cranky old man.
Maybe a 600 today is only equivalent to a 520 in the past, but that is only a number and doesn't mean much.
ReplyDeleteoh yes it does!
SAT-V is highly predictive of ability to do college & graduate level work. I know this because I am close to people who do college & graduate admissions.
A difference of 70 to 80 points is enormous.
With the GRE, which hasn't been recentered, a verbal score in the 700s means the candidate is absolutely, across-the-board, unquestionably slated for success assuming he or she doesn't have emotional or life issues that interfere. Intellectually, the candidate has what it takes. More than what it takes.
A verbal score below 600 means that in all likelihood that candidate can't do the work. (I'm talking about graduate programs in humanities/social sciences, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that math & science departments view this the same way.
A verbal score below 550 means the candidate won't be able to succeed in the program, period.
Bear in mind the fact that I'm talking about GRE scores, which haven't been recentered. In my day SAT-V and GRE-V were typically the same or close to the same.
My "sources" tell me that below 550 GRE-V students cannot do Masters level work.
A 550 GRE-V is now, I assume, roughly equivalent to a 620 SAT-V.
Think about it.
To people who are actually doing admissions, a verbal score in the low 600s is a flag.
I decided to take it six months early to ensure that I got the old test.
ReplyDeleteoh....my....god
what were you thinking???
Michelle Hernandez has a wonderful passage in her book about how college counselors still see a verbal score of 700 as evidence of brilliance because they haven't switched over to the post-1995 scale psychologically....
Elizabeth -- thank you!
ReplyDeleteThat reminds me: I have to get your spelling post pulled up front.
heck
ReplyDeletelooks like I can't pull a copy of the Scottish & American children article
The scores were looked at differently then.
ReplyDelete520 then might be the same as 600 now. the numbers are different but they are viewed the same.
Not sure if I understand you, but the numbers definitely aren't seen the same by parents around here.
ReplyDeletePeople think they're children's high scores are the same high scores they got on the SAT.
Last year when I sent out an email explaining the recentering it was forwarded all over the town -- caused a huge stir.
Parents have no idea the recentering ever occurred.