In a comment that Catherine pulled out, I suggested that it's practically taboo for people to talk critically about the school their children attend. (Obviously that's not the case at KTMII, but this group is the exception to the rule.)
The question is - why?
Why is it that people are so accustomed to talking openly about every service they receive - cable, air travel, house painting, phone service, retail, etc. - except for public education?
If you have a problem with most services, you complain to the service provider, and you're not afraid to talk with other people about your experiences. But that doesn't happen in education. Again, why?
Is it a sense of futility? Are people afraid that their children will be punished somehow because their parents are rabble-rousers? Do people feel outmatched - on the wrong side of "the expert advantage"? Is it because people don't have any hard proof on which to base their arguments? Is it just because that's how it is - there's community pressure to hold your tongue? Or is it something else?
Why?
The size of the town makes a difference. Our small town makes it harder to send letters to the editor. Some people complain directly, but we never hear about it. I do hear things at the grocery store and soccer sidelines, but it would be EXTREMELY politically incorrect to form a group of (just) parents to talk about school issues.
ReplyDeletePart of this is based on opinion. A big issue in our town is full-inclusion and child-centered learning. The school really can't provide a good education for both ends of the ability spectrum. My son was sitting around doing nothing in first grade, but how can you argue against a fundamental assumption? Some parents LOVE this type of education. It's not OK to argue for separation by ability or to ask for more teaching.
I've also talked in the past about how our school does a good job of preemptive strikes to keep parents in their place. The message is clear. We're in charge and you're not. Parents are afraid, or maybe they know that it won't make any difference at all.
My son (in sixth grade) is coloring about 100 3 X 5 index cards this year on science words, like "virus". These take a long time to do and he is graded mostly on the artwork. How do I go in there and say that they are doing this all wrong? It may work better for some kids at the lower end. This is not necessarily an argument of right or wrong. Most people (in our affluent town) just send their kids elsewhere. The school knows exactly why parents do this.
Being a public school, they have to deal with kids from all ability levels. They have decided that the way to do this is to use full-inclusion and low (developmentally appropriate) expectations. So the argument is never about "proof". The parents who want more for their kids are in the position of trying to ask for separation by ability. The school (in effect) claims that it's a zero sum equation. More for the more able kids means less for the less able kids.
People here are actively afraid that their kids will be retaliated against.
ReplyDeleteI've told these stories before:
1 close friend said, "The district will crush you. They'll hurt your child."
Another told me that her own child had been hurt.
And then, of course, there was the district meeting at which an entire army of teachers showed up with the union head and threatened to sue me.
Schools play hard ball.
People who don't have kids in the schools need to get involved.
ReplyDeleteit would be EXTREMELY politically incorrect to form a group of (just) parents to talk about school issues
ReplyDeleteWe're definitely past that stage around these parts!
Also, our district has been having a battle royale over tracking for as long as I've been here.
ReplyDeleteSo....parents are afraid to speak up, but on the other hand there is a heck of a lot of complaining.
Last comment for the moment: you have to have tremendous confidence to complain as a parent.
ReplyDeleteEducators speak only in jargon; parents have no idea what they're saying; you're always afraid of being wrong because you don't know what they've just said to you.
It took me probably two years to learn enough about education, math, educational psychology, education policy & politics to feel like the playing field was now even as far as arguments go.
I hadn't actually read your entire post when I commented.
ReplyDeleteEverything on your list is true here.
I heard yesterday, from another parent, that quite a few parents of current 8th graders are trying to take their kids out of the school.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I suspected, but I didn't know for sure.
The problem is that most of these kids won't get in to private schools. There aren't enough slots to go around. A 4-to-1 application-to-slot ratio is the lowest I've heard of.
I imagine this must happen every year. Lots of parents get fed up, try to get out, and end up back in the district. They don't tell people about it for obvious reasons.
I'm also hearing that parents of 5th graders are trying to get their kids out.
In my neighborhood, it is about property values. School are of very uneven quality, and being zoned for a "good" school can increase property value very dramatically. Speaking poorly of the school not only shatters the parents belief that their child is getting an adequate education, but it also hits them in the pocketbook. Don't dare tarnish the school's reputation, or people won't have any incentive to buy our overpriced real estate.
ReplyDeleteIn my recent experience with general issues it was "all of the above". Administrators and teachers view general questions about curriculum, performance, etc. as taboo. Outright criticism is anathema. The school board is more receptive of questions and criticisms. In teacher's defense, it would be difficult to get much done if all parents had to agree with the way a particular assignment was done; however I'm talking here about larger issues (e.g., constructivism v. direct instruction).
ReplyDeleteThe broader, related question that should be explored is why aren't those charged with educating held responsible for how well children are learning.
In my neighborhood, it is about property values.
ReplyDeleteDon't think I haven't thought of that!!
I can't tell whether schools are of uneven quality here in Westchester. Every school seems to be "high performing"...and U.S. News has just ranked our high school in the top 100.
And there aren't really any alternatives. Very few private schools, all very selective, etc.
There aren't many Catholic schools, either, and I discovered in the past two months that Jewish parents are strongly negative on the idea of sending their kids to a Catholic school.
That makes sense, but it took me by surprise nonetheless. This feeling is true even when a Jewish parent is married to a Christian, in my experience at least.
Protestant parents will flee to good Catholic schools but Jewish parents will not.
Fordham, with 2000 students, has around 12 kids who are Jewish.
The broader, related question that should be explored is why aren't those charged with educating held responsible for how well children are learning.
ReplyDeleteright
That reminds me - I've written a starter description of our experience visiting private and parochial schools at redkudu's new web site redkudu's new web site.
The broader, related question that should be explored is why aren't those charged with educating held responsible for how well children are learning.
ReplyDelete...and why those charged with educating have been able to flatly reject programs and curricula that work in favor of programs and curricula that do not work
Speaking of which, the administration has just released a PowerPoint presentation stating that "block scheduling" is an "identified need" of the middle school.
The only research available on block scheduling is negative.
Block scheduling is a bad thing.
But our administrators are able to stand up before the board and the community and tell us our middle school has an identified need for a scheduling approach that has failed everywhere else.
extra credit: The PowerPoint includes a slide on "Research."
The "Research" the committee conducted was to read the NMSA web page on exemplary middle schools.
This is actually stated outright.
"research"
Yes, yes, yes and yes. I know at least a few people in each category and I have been plagued by each of the Brett misgivings Brett listed at least once.
ReplyDeleteI have two children in our school district. So, while I have a vested interest in what happens there, the act of pulling my daughter out to homeschool her for fifth grade this year sends a radical message of disapproval. Talk about "practically taboo". Where I live, homeschooling is simply not done.
It's like a silent protest. I don't have to tell people what I'm dissatisfied about. They ask me.
Brett misgivings... ?
ReplyDeleteYikes!
That would be "misgivings Brett mentioned"
I've got to meet the homeschooling folks here.
ReplyDeleteI know of two families (one family pulled their son out of Hackley! he's at Andover now...)
I know there's at least one family who pulled kids out of our public school, but I think there may be at least one other, too.
And, yes, pulling your kids out of the school to homeschool is about as radical as it gets.
ReplyDeleteA Jewish professor pulling his son out of public school to send him to a Catholic prep school would be right up there, too.
If such a thing were to occur.
(The family who pulled a child out of Hackley is also homeschooling two other kids. They may have briefly homeschooled their son as well; not sure.)
ReplyDeleteI have 2 in public school and 1 who now homeschools.
ReplyDeleteOnce I pulled out of the neighborhood school, I suddenly started hearing all sorts of misgivings from other parents. It was as if they felt it was "safe" to talk to me about how they really felt about the school after I made my feelings public. Parents are concerned, but think that everyone else is happy with the school so they must be wrong.
“Is it a sense of futility? Are people afraid that their children will be punished somehow because their parents are rabble-rousers? Do people feel outmatched - on the wrong side of "the expert advantage"?
ReplyDeleteYes, yes & yes.
Many people see their own kids as the problem, NOT the school. That attitude was enormously appealing to me. However, when I began to see the nonsense that sometimes passes as teaching, I changed my tune and started to consider that the school was not holding up their end of the bargain. I began to call them on it, and their response has been to do nothing differently. And, to sometimes ignore me.
Sense of futility.
People who don't have kids in the schools need to get involved.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree. Unfortunately, I think people who don’t have kids in the schools usually cannot know the problems as well as the parents with school kids. They’re not as motivated and they view it as someone else’s problem. Of course, their protestations are often discounted by the powers that be and by the other parents.
A Jewish professor pulling his son out of public school to send him to a Catholic prep school would be right up there, too.
ReplyDelete“I don’t care who you are, that’s funny right there.” (Interjecting some lame blue-collar humor.)
* * Where I live, homeschooling is simply not done. * *
ReplyDeleteThat's a shame. In the Washington, D.C., area, which is probably just as affluent as that of the above poster, homeschooling is very popular, attracting people of diverse educational philosophies. Many of the posters on this blog would be candidates for homeschooling. My wife and I homeschool our two daughters.
"People who don't have kids in the schools need to get involved."
ReplyDeleteMany of the best advocates for change did have kids in the public schools. They got fed up and went elsewhere. Now they wash their hands of the problem.
Twenty to twenty-five percent of the kids in our town go to other schools. Some of the parents worked very hard to get the public schools to change or offer alternatives. They wouldn't. Now, these parents are accused of wanting an "elite" education and dismissed out-of-hand. The schools know that this is not true.
They just want to do what they want to do, and they try to focus all arguments on money. They would do more, but they just don't have the money.
"People who don't have kids in the schools need to get involved."
ReplyDeleteI agree; however, one of the challenges I've seen in this area is that community leaders (businesspeople, politicians, etc) won't act unless they know that there's (a) interest and (b) support on an issue, whatever that issue might be.
These leaders may know full well that there's a problem - but why would they try to lead a charge if they don't think there's anyone behind them, or anyone who cares? They'll just get beaten up by the schools (for "not caring about the kids") for their troubles.
That's the funny thing about the vast majority of leaders: they need to find out where their followers want to go before they can run to the front of the pack and lead them. There are a few out there who will truly lead based on principle, but they're very few and far between.
* * Where I live, homeschooling is simply not done. * *
ReplyDeleteOf course, I know of a few people who do. We are, of course, the exception. People move here for the schools. It would never cross their minds that homeschooling would be an option-- a very good option, in fact.
Strangely enough, my daughter is promoting the value of homeschooling whenever she can. She has friends begging their parents to homeschool them. When parents hear all the interesting things my daughter has to say, how eloquently and coherently she can present her ideas, and that she is not socially dwarfed by being educated at home, whatever stereotypes they may have had about homeschooling are challenged.
In some way, this may open up a dialogue between parents are their own children about what is going on in school and what they are learning (or not learning). It just may cause parents to take pause and re-evaluate what's happening in our schools with a more critical eye.
You're right about many of the posters at KTM excelling at homeschooling their children because for the most part, they already are to some degree.
uhmmmm. get a job
ReplyDeletesend your kid to hackely
i don't know
stop wasting your time dearest you'll never get it back
Hackley is getting....hmm...
ReplyDeleteI've forgotten.
Hackley is getting something like 6 or 7 applications per slot.