Is Charles the student who / whom you know wants to go to the University of Chicago?(Well, C. and I got it wrong. Ed is resisting the verdict.)
On the other hand, my friend Robyne, an attorney, got it right at once. (Got to, got to, got to take a legal writing course. pdf file)
Related: how to find the verb(s) in a sentence the way a linguist might find the verb(s) in a sentence:*
1. Change the tense of the sentence from present to past, or from past to present.Traditional grammar books call the verb-like critters that don't have to change form when you move from present to past or past to present verbals, not verbs.
2. The word or words that change form (spelling) are the verb or verbs.
PRESENT TENSE: Hiding in the bushes, the cat watches its prey.Watch and watches are the verbs; hiding and hidden are the verbals.
PRESENT TENSE: Hidden in the bushes, the catch watches its prey.
PAST TENSE: Hiding in the bushes, the cat watched its prey.
PAST TENSE: Hidden in the bushes, the cat watched its prey.
fyi: Linguists don't seem to use the term verbals, but I don't know what term they do use, if any.
and see:
THE COMING DEATH OF WHOM: PHOTO EVIDENCE
Meanwhile Mark Liberman says whom has been dead for a century.
From which I conclude that the word dead means something different to a linguist than it does to me. To me, a dead word is a word like ..... thee. Or thou. Or canst! Ere, oft, 'tis -- now those are dead words.
But whom is still with us. It is neither alive nor well, but it is definitely still kicking. Whom is a word no one has a clue how to use; we're all just closing our eyes and taking a flying leap when we pick it out of the Great Word Cloud inside our heads. Maybe linguists need a special category for words people no longer know how to use but are still using anyway.
(Maybe linguists already have such a category? Maybe the term for such words is dead?)
How about zombie words?
If you tell me whom has been a zombie word for a century, that I believe.
*I don't know how linguists find verbs in sentences. What I do know, what I have discovered over the past year, is that traditional grammar books are frequently wrong, or at least semi-wrong: traditional grammar books are wrong enough to be confusing and of little help when you're trying to tell an 18-year old how to find a verb in a sentence.
The answer is 'who', right?
ReplyDeleteBecause 'who' refers to the subject, not to an object (direct or indirect)?
-Mark Roulo
yup!
ReplyDeleteGood job!
btw, you can easily see the 3 clauses -- and, I think, the fact that who is a subject of one of the clauses -- by using the verb test.
The substitution test works too: you'd say "You know he wants to go to the University of Chicago" so it must be who. I find that a good one it isn't clear whether the missing term is the subject or object.
ReplyDeleteRearranging the sentence makes the correct choice obvious. "You know Charles is the student who wants to go to the University of Chicago."
ReplyDeleteWhen my daughter was 2 and a half, she interrupted a conversation I was having with a neighbor to correct the neighbor's grammar when she used 'who' instead of 'whom.' The neighbor, an elementary school teacher, was rather flummoxed, but my daughter was correct. The kid has an ear for grammar.
ReplyDeleteI rearranged it to: Is Charles the student you know who wants...
ReplyDeleteIt's the "you know" in there that confuses it.
re: whom being dead.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my early 40s and I can guarantee I've never used 'whom'.
I'm with ChemProf.
ReplyDeleteHere's the trick I use with my students (who would pass out if I started talking about objects, direct or otherwise)
Flip the sentence and substitute "he" or "him." If "him" works, then it should be "whom" - notice they both have an "m" at the end. If "he" works, it should be "who."
"He" is the student who wants to go to the Univ of Chicago? Or "Him is the student who wants to go to..."
Practically all of my students can hear it accurately this way. "He" works therefore it must be "who."
@Stacey Howe-Lott You always have the best way to remember things.
ReplyDeleteCatherine -- I love this line: "But whom is still with us. It is neither alive nor well, but it is definitely still kicking. Whom is a word no one has a clue how to use; we're all just closing our eyes and taking a flying leap when we pick it out of the Great Word Cloud inside our heads."
The rule I learned and still use to help me speak and write with proper grammar: a pronoun takes its case from its function within its own clause.
ReplyDeleteThe grammarian who taught us writing in 1979 made sure we understood various clauses, subjective and objective cases, and more. The rule works!
OK, I just read this post. It is obviously "who" - I have no idea why since that infernal sentence diagramming never had any impact on me. But the sentence, which sounds clunky in either form, sounds just WRONG using "whom". And, and, I admit it - I actually DO use "whom" on some rare occasions.
ReplyDelete"who" is so intuitive! and a kid would get it right too. kids are natural at "wh-word" inversion.
ReplyDeletePersonally I would say "is Charles the student you know / who wants to go to Chicago?"