kitchen table math, the sequel: trouble in paradise

Tuesday, June 17, 2008

trouble in paradise

uh-oh

Remember the mom who wrote about her 5th grade daughter entering KIPP?

Now she's going to meetings, emailing the Board, and finding teachers weeping in bathrooms:

Thanks for all your support on my ongoing KIPP struggle. The struggle continues, really nothing new to report, other than there are now 12 of 18 teachers who will not be coming back next year. I'm waiting for one of the Board members to get back in town and hopefully respond to some of my concerns. Reading your comments definitely helps me keep my determination to keep fighting. Thank you.

So I went tonight to the KIPP meeting after all. I wasn't going to go. I was going to give myself the night off. I was going to spend the time with my Riley, while Sylvia's still away on her field trip. We were going to have a quiet evening at home.

Wouldn't you know, Riley said she wanted to go. My 7-year-old daughter wanted to spend her evening in a Board meeting. I've corrupted my child!

So we went. I did learn some things. But, unfortunately, not many of them were encouraging. I'm Chicken Little. I'm screaming at the top of my lungs that the sky is falling, and while they listen (and don't laugh), I don't feel like they hear me.

I just made one more effort, one more attempt. I wrote a 1,240-word email. And somehow that's not enough. Once that was done, all I wanted to do was blog. No wonder my 7-year-old is corrupted; I'm seriously disturbed.

I haven't eaten dinner these last 2 nights. I've been in meetings, and when I get home, my appetite has been thoroughly drained. I'm tired, but I can't sleep.

Tonight, I'm having some wine to go w/ my whine. I may have to qualify this as a BUI post.

So here's my main concern. Because screw it, I'm putting it out there.

I have no confidence in the woman who has been hired to replace our Principal. I don't feel like she gives a crap about our concerns. She's treated the teachers poorly. As of tonight, 2 of them still don't know if they have a job next year! As of tonight, 9 out of 18 teachers will not be returning next year. After tomorrow, that number could rise to 10. I personally know only 2 teachers that are returning next year, and only one of them will be my daughter's. I think.

I don't know what the changes will be in the curriculum. I've heard that some subjects will be combined, but when my daughter's in school for nearly 10 hours a day, I don't see the need. Nor do I know what she will be doing in the times she used to take certain classes.

I don't like the sound of some subjects will be combined.

That is a directive straight from the BLOB.

The edu-world's blind faith in wholeism really is something. Here's a typical Statement of Core Belief:
We decided to create a unit plan on ocean animals for many reasons. One reason is the fact that children could have a lot of fun learning this information. It is a topic that sparks a child’s interest and makes them want to learn more. Children need to learn more about ocean life and how that ocean life relates to us. Because the loss of life in the ocean can and will affect everyone in the world it is important for the children to have a general understanding of the life that lives in the ocean, even if they do not live near the ocean.

In addition, this theme is being taught in many schools today and we felt that it was important for us as future teachers to understand that there are many subjects that could be taught using this general theme. The ideas using this theme are endless. Teachers should understand that children will feel that what they learn is important if it is relevant. Teaching subjects in isolation leaves the children feeling disconnected and bored with learning in general. Learning by using themes is a way to add some creativity and enjoyment to learning subjects. Students need to be actively learning and doing in order to grasp the concepts involved. These hands on activities will get the students involved and thinking critically about animals on land as well as those who live in the ocean.
Needless to say, this is not what is typically meant by "coherence." This teacher's Thematic Unit on Ocean Animals springs out of nowhere. It doesn't follow logically from what has come before, nor does it lead logically to what will come after. It simply appears, full-blown, sprung from the brain of Zeus.

Behold, children!

A thematic unit on ocean animals!

We have the universities to thank for this, I think. They got caught up in an interdisciplinary quest a while back, leading to the proliferation of programs ending in the word "Studies." Cultural studies was pretty much the apotheosis of interdisciplinarity, and we know how that turned out.

Interdisciplinarity at the college level is now a selling point in college promotion materials, and continues to have its adherents. (warning: If Robert Sternberg has his way, the middle school model will be coming to a college near you).

There are any number of problems with interdisciplinarity, all of which, for our purposes, can probably be boiled down to the observation that interdisciplinarity doesn't work:

For nearly a decade, I regularly start the semester by asking students in my upper-level interdisciplinary general studies seminar what distinguishes the sciences, social sciences, and humanities from one another. ... [F]ew can offer more than vague ideas of how they differ. Most can identify disciplines that typically fall under the sciences; the majority can situate psychology and sociology in the social sciences, but further categorization of disciplines eludes many of them, as do other distinctions about these areas of the liberal arts such as hallmark methodologies and primary objects of study.

Having significant exposure to disciplines in the liberal arts in conjunction with a primary area of study is a distinctive feature of higher education in the United States. Every spring and fall for at least four years, students throughout the country have to consider fulfilling general education requirements in the sciences, social sciences, and humanities. But, for many, maybe most, their general education courses are blank slots to be filled by brief conscripted voyages into less familiar disciplinary waters. They graduate more well rounded, with more breadth of content, not just depth, but few leave with a conscious understanding of how scholarly inquiry is conducted outside of their major and how inquiry in the liberal arts illuminates timeless questions and pressing concerns of humankind. As undergraduates accept their diplomas and exit the stage, they leave with an inchoate awareness of what they have been a part of.

In teaching upper-level interdisciplinary general studies seminars I also have observed that my soon-to-be-graduates struggle mightily when they engage in scholarly thinking themselves. Specifically, they have difficulty forming an intellectual thesis that goes beyond the obvious and supporting it with scholarly evidence, a formidable task. When writing papers or giving presentations, the majority of students unwittingly inhabit the lower realms of epistemological taxonomies. To situate their position in terms of two well-established schemas of educational development, my students are generally more comfortable being asked to recall and comprehend knowledge, the first rungs in Bloom’s Taxonomy (1956), as opposed to being asked to apply, analyze, synthesize, or evaluate knowledge, the higher end of this taxonomy....

Fortunately, students are called upon to reach these upper realms of thought in their major discipline, perhaps many times but particularly in capstone courses, such as senior seminars. The challenge is to do likewise in a capstone general studies course, particularly when such a course is interdisciplinary. However, the extent to which undergraduates can engage in, not simply learn about, interdisciplinarity is uncertain. Some academics who contemplate pedagogical issues, including Howard Gardner, renowned Harvard professor of cognition and education, wonder whether students in undergraduate education have enough disciplinary knowledge to do genuine interdisciplinary thinking (2006, p. 73). In his recent book, Five Minds for the Future, Gardner considers:

"And what of genuine interdisciplinary thought? I consider it a relatively rare achievement, one that awaits mastery of at least the central components of two or more disciplines. In nearly all cases, such an achievement is unlikely before an individual has completed advanced studies" (p. 77).



"Interdisciplinary" courses in middle school aren't interdisciplinary.

Thematic teaching isn't interdisciplinary.

The only people who can actually do interdisciplinary projects -- let alone interdisciplinary teaching -- are people who are expert in more than one discipline, and there are about five people like that on the planet:

We have an enduring fantasy of a grand, unified theory of knowledge in which each discipline contributes building blocks to a seamless edifice. How can we know the ways we are unified if we don't talk to one another?

What we see in practice, however, when broad categories like the sciences, humanities, and social sciences are supposedly bridged, are a lot of courses on "Women and Health" or "Shakespeare and Art." Those are billed as interdisciplinary, and they are if you consider that an English professor who has some interest in visual arts is teaching the latter or a historian who has read about the history of medicine is teaching the former. But such courses aren't really interdisciplinary because both are taught by people trained in one discipline who are essentially amateurs in the other.

Can one person ever be a master of two trades? A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, but a lot of knowledge can be even more dangerous. Careering off in varying directions isn't what our current educational system is about. After all, it takes a lifetime to learn a single discipline. In English, for example, to be expert you have to read a vast body of literature over a long period of time. If a physicist decides to teach an interdisciplinary course on literature and cosmology, will she really be proficient in both fields? Or if I decide to venture into medicine or science, will I have the training of a scientist or a physician? Obviously not.

A Grand Unified Theory of Interdisciplinarity
by Lennard J. Davis
Chronicle of Higher Education
June 8, 2007



These voices will not be heard. Even Howard Gardner, a man who has now written an entire book arguing that K-12 schools should devote themselves to teaching the disciplines, not the interdisciplines, will not be heard.

nope

Instead, we'll be hearing from the likes of Tom Friedman and Daniel Pink:

Pink: Once again, it goes back to integration. Or what I’ve called symphony, which is the ability to fit the pieces together.

Friedman: Absolutely. My friend Rob Watson — a great environmentalist who founded the LEED building concept — Rob likes to say that integration is the new specialty. The generalist is really going to come back. The great generalist — someone who has a renaissance view of the world — is more likely to spark an innovation than the pure engineer.

Pink: Let’s take this to the people who are reading this interview — school superintendents and administrators. Right now we frog-march kids from math to science to English — and too rarely make the connections among the disciplines. In your travels have you seen any examples of a smarter approach?

Friedman: I’ll give you one of my favorite examples: Rainforest Math. There’s so much one can learn from the laws of nature — not just biology, but Einstein, Newton, physics. And you drive both environmentalism and you drive math. So it’s those kinds of intersections that are going to produce the most innovative students.

Pink: So how do we bring that into the system? There’s team teaching, integrating the arts into the curriculum, writing across subject areas. What else?

Friedman: I think you’ve got to force it a little like Georgia Tech did and say: “You are going to study computing, and you are going to study screenwriting.” Then the assignment in the class is: Write an online play with what you’ve learned.

Pink: That makes sense. Instruction in the subject matter areas, but then leave the execution to the students. And give them a fair amount of autonomy along the way.

Friedman: Right. The assignment can be: “Mash these two together.”

Pink: And these kids get mash-ups.

Friedman: Oh, they get mash-ups. They do it naturally. And today, he who mashes best will mash most and be wealthiest.

Pink: Which country is the best masher on the planet?

Friedman: Oh, we are still. It’s not even close.

Tom Friedman on Education in the 'Flat world'
The School Administrator
February 2008

Tom and I see eye to eye on that one. When it comes to mashing up the liberal arts disciplines, American public schools lead the parade.

44 comments:

wordsmith said...

"Rainforest Math"?

Oh brother.

How many kids can even handle regular math, let alone something called "Rainforest Math"?

Catherine Johnson said...

It's like watching a train wreck.

Catherine Johnson said...

I have a theory that interdisciplinarity is a way around standards....there's a terrific essay at Illinois Loop written by a mom who saw one child through junior high & a second child through middle school. The junior high had converted to the middle school model.

She said that after the conversion, "everyone taught everything."

Our middle school has traveled pretty far down that path, and I think next year we'll see all teachers teaching all things once they're assembled into the Interdisciplinary Teams.

I spent some time last year protesting crayola curriculum assignments on grounds that the teachers making the assignments weren't certified to teach art (which was true).

That was a novel defense, but not a successful one.

I will say that C. did not have to make the "documentary film" 8th graders have traditionally had to make in 8th grade ELA. All the other kids had to, but not the kids in C's ELA class.

I'd like to think that's thanks to our interventions, but the truth is probably just that the teacherwas sick a lot & the thing never got assigned.

Catherine Johnson said...

The district newsletter reported a couple of months ago that the middle school had purchased new software: Claymation & some virtual reality thingie. The technology teachers were currently working with it.

Next year, the newsletter announced breathlessly, students would use the Claymation software to make "films" (have I mentioned recently I have a Ph.D. in film studies & taught at the UCLA film school?). The virtual reality software would be used in "curriculum projects."

Assessed with a rubric, no doubt!

Tracy W said...

Okay, I'm confused. What's an engineering course if not an interdisciplinary course? What's biochemistry, if not an interdisciplinary course? What's econometrics if not an interdisciplinary course?

Are you arguing that those subjects should not be taught at university, or can't be taught at university? Or that they aren't interdisciplinary, while, say, Shakespeare and the Arts is?

SteveH said...

"Are you arguing that those subjects should not be taught at university, or can't be taught at university?"

I think there are two levels and two different things going on here. First, we know how K-12 educators like to take an idea and run in the wrong direction. But for my old engineering school, this seems to be a new trend that is being influenced by K-12 educators.

What, exactly, is this trend? It's about a shifting focus. It's about a top-down, real world, or thematic approach to learning new material.

There was a thread a while back about Carnegie Mellon and their ETC masters program in computer science that was strictly project work, because "they already have four years of reading textbooks". However, ETC is not about learning new material. It's about putting it all together. The ETC program is also just an optional major. Most students continue to specialize at the graduate level.


You also have the big emergence of special projects in the undergraduate world, like the solar car, manual-powered submarines, and the Baja Racer. I got a newsletter from my engineering school where the dean (and someone else who sounded a lot like a K-12 educator) talked about formalizing these projects as (perhaps) the centerpiece of undergraduate engineering education. I wrote him an email (with no response) about how this would dilute mastery of basic knowledge and skills. What was an optional "more" becomes a mandatory task that has to replace something else. They're not talking about senior design projects. They're talking about shifting the central focus of undergraduate education. All students are forced to be generalists. It's not an add-on, it's a take-away.

You might be able to get this to work in college, but it does not translate to K-12, especially as the main vehicle for learning new material. You can't put it all together when you don't have anything to put. The Science Olympiad or the FIRST Lego League may be great add-ons, but they make lousy curricula.

PaulaV said...

When I learned our superintendent read Daniel Pink's new book, A Whole New Mind, it piqued my interest. I asked the principal about it and she too read it and thought it was fascinating.

The one thing that stood out for me when reading the interview with Friedman and Pink is this phrase by Pink:

"So how do we bring that into the system? There’s team teaching, integrating the arts into the curriculum, writing across subject areas."

My principal is big on team teaching and writing across subject areas. Perhaps she is using Pink's book as a guide for curriculum choices. A scary thought.

Unknown said...

SteveH is right on!!

You can't ask anyone to build anything without first giving them some tools.

Oh sure, they could have a scavenger hunt to locate the tools, which could take alot of time. Then, of course, they would need to learn how to use the tools, which could take more time.

Besides, I wouldn't even consider giving my child any tools without first teaching him how to use them. ;D

Tracy W said...

What, exactly, is this trend? It's about a shifting focus. It's about a top-down, real world, or thematic approach to learning new material.

What's a non-thematic approach to learning new material? Is a degree in electrical engineering a non-thematic approach to learning new material? Is a degree in biochemistry fake world?

I agree that teachers should start with the basic skills and work their way up. But whether this is done strikes me as independent of whether a course is being taught in a single discipline or in a multidiscipline. I've read plenty of complaints on this board about kids doing various maths curriculum being expected to learn new material the hard way, without having the basic skills behind it.

All students are forced to be generalists. It's not an add-on, it's a take-away.

Call me a skeptic, but I don't think that designing and building a manual-powered submarine or a solar car is a generalist topic. How many linguistic students would have something to contribute to that?

And are engineering students more generalist than physics students? Physics students learn more about a wider range of physics areas than engineers do, but less about engineering. Are biochemist students more generalist than chemistry students?

I'm really trying to understand what's different about multidisciplinary courses compared to single discipline courses.

Ari-free said...

I don't have a problem with interdisciplinarity if we are combining biology with physics.

I do have a problem with combining humanities with the sciences such as literature and math or art and chemistry. The disciplines aren't of much value together and the combination is contrived for the sake of wholism.

SteveH said...

".. but I don't think that designing and building a manual-powered submarine or a solar car is a generalist topic."

It is for an engineer. But even then, people specialize and do not learn much outside of their own task. There is not enough time.


"I'm really trying to understand what's different about multidisciplinary courses compared to single discipline courses."

The concept is applied to more than one course and it's a zero sum proposition. Something has to be taken away. It's one thing to have a senior design project, but quite another to require that all learning (even in college) has to be connected to real-world applications or tied together.

It's not as if the material is the same, but just shifted around and tied together. You don't end up at the same place, but better. It's a different place.

Another issue has to do with the project method that these approaches usually take. Project learning might be great for a few students, but many will just ride along on the coattails.

The problem could be project-based learning, but I think it's more than that. When I studied the Bernoulli Principle in fluid dynamics class, we had to do lots of examples from different fields. When educators now talk about an interdisciplinary approach, they are talking about so much more. Less time is spent on mastery of the details and more time is spent on general topics. At best, the approach might not be bad, but it's going in a different direction.

Anonymous said...

I think the notion of a "system" consisting of many subsystems is being confused with the notion of "interdisciplinary". Engineers work on systems, and good engineers know how to think about how their subsystem fits into the overall system, and how that interaction changes their application.

It's not accurate to call engineering "interdisciplinary" in the first place.

Engineering is its own specific discipline, and it requires learning certain truths in math, physics, chemistry, economics, etc. but those truths aren't engineering. Engineering is about the application of those truths to certain problems. Engineers in college do not learn physics the way physicists do, and they are not expected to. Why? Because physicists will be asking different questions about the nature of physics, while engineers just need to know what's been found to be true so they can apply it in their environment, their system. So engineers in their thermo class learn how to build refrigerators, while physicists derive Liouville's theorem to learn about the state space of statistical mechanics in their thermo class.

An "interdisciplinary" class is something else entirely. At its best, it says "We're going to look at both perspective for every step of the way." Well, that's already not going to work, because it means you've got half the time to learn the physics and half the time to learn the engineering. If you really want both perspectives, take both classes.

But at its most mediocre, an interdisciplinary class doesn't do the work from both perspectives at all; instead, it looks at the work from some meta point where it talks in analogies and relationships, connections. That's USELESS unless you've got mastery already. And of course, there will be no mastery because there's no course where you are being taught the fundamentals if everything's been replaced by "interdisciplinary" studies.

Anonymous said...

---I don't have a problem with interdisciplinarity if we are combining biology with physics

Well, I do. What does it even mean? What is being taught that wouldn't be taught in a physics class? Newton's laws applied to cells? We're going to measure the effects of gravity on protein gradients in a cell? The effects of magnetic fields on brains of elephants? Are you specifically learning photosynthesis from the perspective of quantum mechanics, to understand how electrons are jumping shells gives energy to a plant?

A biophysics course is a specific beast, and it's not interdisciplinary at all.

wordsmith said...

I do have a problem with combining humanities with the sciences such as literature and math or art and chemistry. The disciplines aren't of much value together and the combination is contrived for the sake of wholism.

Indeed. Ordinary people would not equate "reading a biography about Madam Curie" with "learning basic chemistry." Yet how many junior high (sorry, when I grew up it was "junior high," and I am insufficiently versed to understand the difference between the two) teachers think they are thereby killing two birds with one stone? Nonsense.

SteveH said...

"So engineers in their thermo class learn how to build refrigerators.."

Yikes. We covered the laws of thermodynamics. We had to do derivations and plug in numbers, but nothing about refrigerators. My book has lots of yellow highlights in the Statistical Mechanics section. No Liouville, but I think Gibbs called it the conservation of density in phase space back when I was in school. One homework problem I have highlighted has to do with a derivation using a Maxwell-Boltzmann velocity distribution.

Many feel that engineering schools are too theoretical. Many engineers probably couldn't build a birdhouse. I had friends who went to the local community college to learn how to weld. I think projects like the Baja Racer are good at meeting this need, but not as a replacement for regular courses.

There are many levels of engineering. Some engineers work with equations and modeling all day, (they look like mathematicians), and some engineers focus more on applications. When I was at Michigan, getting a PhD meant that you were more at the theoretical end. Your thesis had to be original work closer to that end of the spectrum. For those who were more interested in applications, they had something called a Professional Engineering degree (this is not related to the PE license) which came after grad school. Few took that path.

Unknown said...

Recall this passage from William H. Schmidt's article:
-----------------------------------
Coherent standards follow the structure of the discipline being taught.

Once that formal academic body of knowledge has been parsed out and sequenced from kindergarten through 12th grade, it should reflect the internal logic of the discipline.

This is especially important in mathematics, which is very hierarchical.

-----------------------------------
I think this is the heart of the issue...

How much focus, rigor, and coherence is lost, due to the reality of time constraints, when you use interdisciplinary approaches?

Linda Seebach said...

Tying coherence and mastery to thematic units and project-based learning is like replacing money with barter. You have home-grown tomatoes to sell, or expertise in eye surgery, say, but you need milk and legal advice. Why should you have to go looking for a dairy farmer who needs cataract surgery?

I was puzzled, as I usually am, by the preposterous piffle that passes for argument in education precincts, for example, Angie and Aimee's proclamation of their core beliefs:

>>>
Teachers should understand that children will feel that what they learn is important if it is relevant. Teaching subjects in isolation leaves the children feeling disconnected and bored with learning in general.
>>>

But in this case the source of the problem is clear; these teachers are assuming all the children in their classes are like them. Not very bright; entirely free of intellectual curiosity; so self-centered they cannot imagine being interested in something not immediately relevant to their own petty concerns. And the curriculums they promote are precisely calibrated to turn out students exactly like them.

Anonymous said...

For me, this idea of a thematic unit brings to mind the need to distinguish between skill and knowledge. I define skill, for this argument, as the sufficient application of knowledge to transform it from a curiousity to something of value.

If a thematic unit is comingling skill acquisition with knowledge acquisition it should only do so with great care and attention as to intent. Here's a trivial example.

It'a fundamental bit of knowledge that a 3-4-5 triangle is a right triangle. Carpenters combine this bit with another bit, about proportion, to check large structures for squareness. Two bits combine to produce something of potential value. After doing this a sufficient number of times, this practice gains automaticity and a skill is born.

The skill acquisition should be separate from the knowledge acquisition. In my example the only new knowledge imparted in the skills acquisition is the extension of two independent bits and it should not get bogged down with the teaching of the attributes of a 3-4-5 or proportions.

I see nothing wrong with a theme that is developing skills (by my definition) provided the fundamentals (the bits you are going to extend) are in place at the opening bell. But, and this is a big but, you need to be careful that if you do so you're not creeping into vocational training.

I may be wrong, but isn't the fundamental liberal education primarily about the bits and not the vocation? If my presumption is correct then going thematic too early just gets in the way unless, of course, our goal is apprencticeships.

Tracy W said...

It is for an engineer. But even then, people specialize and do not learn much outside of their own task. There is not enough time.

Well my specialisation is in being one of the few people in the world who combines electrical engineering and economics. I find it has a lot of advantages. I did however do both degrees separately.

Engineers in college do not learn physics the way physicists do, and they are not expected to. Why? Because physicists will be asking different questions about the nature of physics, while engineers just need to know what's been found to be true so they can apply it in their environment, their system. So engineers in their thermo class learn how to build refrigerators, while physicists derive Liouville's theorem to learn about the state space of statistical mechanics in their thermo class.

Actually, we did learn to derive everything at university. One of my mates during my engineering degree had already done his NZ Certificate of Engineering, which was the technican-level option and he said that that was the main difference between the two courses - during the NZCE they were given the equation, during the BE we were expected to derive it. I don't recall Liouville's theorem (we never used thermodynamics after the first year) but I do recall deriving the result that a thin level of insulation could cause more heat loss than no insulation at all, and then proving it in the lab. I also recall maths classes with lecturers from the maths department that were half electrical engineering students, 1/4 physics and 1/4 maths majors.

If you had asked me after my final exam in my final year to build you a fridge I would have looked at you blankly. Even if you had waited until I was sober again.

An "interdisciplinary" class is something else entirely. At its best, it says "We're going to look at both perspective for every step of the way."

Okay, so this makes more sense, if I'm reading you right. Are you saying that an interdisciplinary course is a course that doesn't try to integrate the two sub-areas into one perspective?

Well, that's already not going to work, because it means you've got half the time to learn the physics and half the time to learn the engineering. If you really want both perspectives, take both classes.

Judging by the amount of hours my engineering degree took up, compared to my friends' physics degrees, the engineers were already taking both classes.

I do have a problem with combining humanities with the sciences such as literature and math or art and chemistry. The disciplines aren't of much value together and the combination is contrived for the sake of wholism.

How do artists make artwork without using chemicals? Indeed, pre-packaged paints, artists had to be practical chemists, and the various developments of new colours for dyes had substantial impacts on the art world.
Mathematics has been used in literary analysis in matters like disputes over authorship.
I don't think everyone needs to learn interdisciplinary courses in art-chemistry or literature-mathematics, but I don't think they are inherently valueless.

Anonymous said...

>>Engineers in college do not learn physics the way physicists do, and they are not expected to.

In my field, Ceramic Engineering, engineers do take physics with the physicists. We also take math with the math majors. My thesis advisors were drawn from both departments. We are expected to understand what we attempt to apply , especially the assumptions and constraints. We derive everything and thermo was not about building refrigerators. Most folks that need thermo on that level take it from a community college and go back and get the lowest passing grade from the ME dept.

Tracy, what do you do now? I'm looking for possibilities as my kids are getting older, but am too bored with mfg. to go back into process engineering or QA.

Catherine Johnson said...

What's an engineering course if not an interdisciplinary course? What's biochemistry, if not an interdisciplinary course?

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about engineering even to attempt to answer this question, but I do know the answer to the biochemistry question: biochemistry is a new discipline.

I'm going to have to get Ed's mini-essay on the disciplines & interdisciplinary work shaped up & posted....we've been trying to figure out what to do with it.

He's just had an interesting experience re: the disciplines.

The details are vague to me, but apparently the French govt (I believe it's the govt) wants to begin funding research in the social sciences the way research in the physical sciences is funded. This means that teams of social scientists will be involved in each project (it also means that we may see social scientists start to be paid as hard scientists are paid, via grant money...)

The projects are required to be interdisciplinary in the sense in which research in the hard sciences is interdisciplinary: you have a geneticist to do the genetics, a statistician to do the statistics, and so on.

The interesting thing, from the POV of the disciplines, is that when it came time really to define a study's question, everything reverted back to one discipline.

Not sure how much detail I can post, so I'll give a non-detailed example.

One proposed project had to do with wealth. The historians loved it because they liked the question it asked & proposed to answer.

The economists didn't like it because although they agreed that the proposed project could answer the question, they didn't see value in doing so. Their issue was: "How will this study advance economic theory?"

Those two points of view, in this case, could not be reconciled. The historians saw value in answering a particular empirical question about wealth; the economists did not see value in answering the question.

The point is that a transcendant Interdisciplinary Principle of research & scholarly inquiry doesn't work.

When an interdisciplinary approach helps one to answer a question, then an interdisciplinary approach should be taken.

But the current assumption that "interdisciplinarity" is always and everywhere to be desired is wrong.

Catherine Johnson said...

People are starting to use different terms to try to distinguish amongst the various possibilities.

In the case of biochemistry, a new discipline has emerged. There are several others...hmm. I'm forgetting the examples at the moment. Offhand, it seems to me that new disciplines form more often in the physical sciences, but I could be wrong.

In other cases, where disciplinary specialists collaborate, people are beginning to use terms like "multidisciplinary" specifically to get away from the idea that Union has been Achieved while Artificial Division of Unified Knowledge into parts has been overcome.

There's another term: transdisciplinary.

I've forgotten what that one means.

I've probably repressed it.

Catherine Johnson said...

Oh gosh... I have to tell a story on Ed.

He spent the last couple of years teaching an interdisciplinary course at NYU. The idea was to have a literature professor & a historian teach the same time period together - which I think went pretty well.

btw, if one wants to promote this kind of thing over "thematic units," the term is usually "aligned curriculum." So, for instance, The Dalton School teaches American history and American literature in the same school year, iirc. They have different teachers & different classtimes, and I don't think the teachers coordinate their assignments, etc.

However, the curriculum is aligned in that students are dealing with American history and American literature in the same school year.

In any event, Ed was teaching the course with a specialist in translation of French poetry. (Can't remember the period.)

He was completely blown away. He had never really seen a disciplinary specialist in literature and translation at work.

He came home one day and said, "Literature people deal with texts completely differently from historians! To a literary specialist, a text isn't a document!"

I cracked up.

I have only the vaguest idea of what a literary specialist does, and I'm only slightly better acquainted with what a historian does.

However, having a Ph.D. in film studies (yes, that's embarrassing) did clue me in to the fact that literature professors were going to approach a text completely differently from historians...

Meanwhile, our district has sent out a letter to parents saying that colleges and universities are "blurring" the disciplines, and that history and English have far more similarities than differences because both involve reading.

In the real world - which, in this case, is colleges and universities - nothing could be further from the truth. Professors of literature and historians are completely different people who do completely different scholarship.

Catherine Johnson said...

"So how do we bring that into the system? There’s team teaching, integrating the arts into the curriculum, writing across subject areas."

Writing across the curriculum is a nightmare.

Writing-in-the-disciplines is what you have to have, and it shouldn't involve writing-in-math.

(I'll post some great stuff on that. Turns out - and this should come as no surprise - that a person who has learned to write in one discipline hasn't learned to write in another discipline.)

Generally speaking I'm "against" team teaching for a couple of reasons.

One is pragmatic: I suspect that the most efficient way to learn as much as possible is to learn within a discipline, rather than have two teachers from different disciplines constantly trying to find some way to "blur" those disciplines, and then asking students to blur the disciplines in their work.

The other has to do with my understanding of de Saussure, who made an enduring impression on me back in the day. De Saussure's argument was that meaning comes from difference. You learn cat by learning dog, too, not by seeing lots and lots of cats but no dogs.

I believe this.

I vote with Howard Gardner on the importance of learning the disciplines first, as disciplines, before combining them in any way.

Interdisciplinary work comes after disciplinary.

Catherine Johnson said...

It's not as if the material is the same, but just shifted around and tied together. You don't end up at the same place, but better. It's a different place.

Right.

In the humanities, you get anachronistic readings of literature.

Three years ago, the then-principal of the middle school was "implementing" (I can't use that word without quotation marks) character education.

Ed and I protested, and he said we shouldn't worry; character education wouldn't take away time from any of the subjects because it would be integrated into the subjects.

Then he gave an example of how character education would be integrated. In literature, for instance, the 8th graders would be reading The Miracle Worker. This would allow the teacher to discuss the morality of the play, which had to do with "a frustrated child with a disability" and "an angry father." (He may have said "clueless father" - can't remember which it was.)

To approach a work of literature through the categories of contemporary politics and culture is exactly what you don't do in the discipline of literary analysis. I don't know how literature specialists do approach literature these days; the field seems to be all over the place.

I do know that if you're going to bring "morality" to bear on a play written in, I believe, the late 1950s whose topic is a blind and deaf child growing up in the South in the early 20th century, you are going to be thinking about the morality of one or both of those time periods, not the morality of early 21st century special ed law.

Catherine Johnson said...

Engineers in college do not learn physics the way physicists do, and they are not expected to. Why? Because physicists will be asking different questions about the nature of physics

That's exactly what Ed saw in the research proposals - and this was in a setting of disciplinary specialists who wanted to conduct interdisciplinary research. The disciplines ask different questions.

Typically they have different ways of finding an answer (at least, that's the case in the humanities & the social sciences). Different objects of analysis, different methodologies and different concepts of what constitutes evidence and what does not.

Catherine Johnson said...

I do have a problem with combining humanities with the sciences such as literature and math or art and chemistry.

Vicky S made a similar point in an email I've been planning on posting.

In the hard sciences disciplinary specialists collaborate all the time -- but they don't collaborate with specialists in 17th century French poetry!

Catherine Johnson said...

Well my specialisation is in being one of the few people in the world who combines electrical engineering and economics. I find it has a lot of advantages.

Interesting.

Catherine Johnson said...

Well my specialisation is in being one of the few people in the world who combines electrical engineering and economics. I find it has a lot of advantages.

Interesting.

Catherine Johnson said...

instead, it looks at the work from some meta point where it talks in analogies and relationships, connections. That's USELESS unless you've got mastery already. And of course, there will be no mastery because there's no course where you are being taught the fundamentals if everything's been replaced by "interdisciplinary" studies.

sheesh

I don't know why I'm bothering to write comments at all -- everyone's already said everything I'm attempting to say.

I need to read first, write comments later.

But.... RIGHT!

That's what I was trying to say (and what Vicky S already said to me in an email).

If you're going to attempt interdisciplinary study and/or teaching, that's going to need to come after students have some grasp of the fundamentals of the disciplines the teacher or teachers are trying to connect.

Catherine Johnson said...

Teaching subjects in isolation leaves the children feeling disconnected and bored with learning in general.

RIGHT!

Evidence, please!

Where is the evidence that children feel disconnected and bored with learning in general when subjects are "taught in isolation?"

I would bet the ranch children feel plenty disconnected and bored with learning in general when subjects are NOT taught in isolation.

I myself find the concept of all subjects being Taught as One stifling to the point of being panic-inducing. I need to have different things going on....different subjects, different people, different interests....I love the "otherness" of the things I read in comments here, for instance.

Baja Racers!

Liouville's theorem!

The world's only living disciplinary specialist in electrical engineering AND economics!

For me, the very idea that these strange and exotic creatures exist is stimulating and intriguing.

I'm sympathetic to the "fantasy" that knowledge can be combined into one coherent Theory of Everything -- it's not necessarily fun to feel that the world is filled with vast quantities of arcane, impossible to grasp or understand knowledge that may have (probably does have!) life-and-death implications for HUMANITY.

But if we're going to talk about the universal emotions of children, we're going to have to acknowledge that there are plenty of children out there who like different things -- who like things to BE different.

Actually, now that I think of it...animals in general are programmed to like novelty (to like it and fear it slightly).

Catherine Johnson said...

I may be wrong, but isn't the fundamental liberal education primarily about the bits and not the vocation?

Yes.

I'm not the person to define the purposes of a liberal education, BUT a liberal education is distinguished from -- and always has been distinguished from -- vocational or professional education.

Interestingly, one of the themes of THE RACE BETWEEN EDUCATION AND TECHNOLOGY is that America prospered because we gave everyone a "general education" (a liberal arts education) instead of a vocational education. The Europeans thought we were crazy.

The idea of providing a liberal arts education for the unwashed masses was violently opposed by ed schools then & is violently opposed by ed schools now.

Meanwhile, the unwashed masses didn't want secretarial and carpentry training for their children.

They wanted Latin.

Anonymous said...

Because the unwashed masses didn't want their children stuck as vocational workers. They knew what a better life was.

Anonymous said...

--In the hard sciences disciplinary specialists collaborate all the time -- but they don't collaborate with specialists in 17th century French poetry!


no, they don't collaborate across specialties in most sciences. Not even across subspecialties inside a given field. It's practically unheard of. They don't use the same vocabulary, they don't use the same tools, they don't know the same facts. And there's little value to it. Where would this collaboration publish? In which journal? Who would be able to peer review it? For the inorganic chemist building molecules with a physicist working on quantum computing, what chemistry journal is going to know how to read the part the physicist wrote? What physicist could even read the molecular diagram? Chemists, even physical chemists, essentially ignore the fact that there are such things in the world as identical particles, even when they do quantum techniques. A handful of theoretical physicists spend all their time talking about thought experiment the rest of the physicists don't really care about (or perhaps believe.)

Combining ideas from one field for another might be lucrative, but you've still got to go back and ground it in your own field for the bigger research world to see the value.

Anonymous said...

Gosh, people, I didn't mean they ACTUALLY build a fridge out of metal. I meant that undergrad mech e's solve problem after problem in thermo class on how to design a fridge, how to pump heat from A to B, how to create an engine to do that, etc. Undergrad physicists in thermo class wouldn't be able to begin to tell you how to apply a Carnot Engine to actually cool something. It's not that they don't know the same thermo laws; it's that their looking at thermo from a different standpoint, one that tells them how compute blackbody radiation, not do something applied to some other technology. Nothing interdisciplinary about either example, just different in scope and direction.

Anonymous said...

Catherine:

Do you know the history and timing of the apprenticeship and guild systems that floursished and have now withered in both Europe and North America? It seems to me that they are part of this discussion.

My (meager) recollection is that most apprenticeships started after the 'bits' were put in during an elementatary (grade 8 or so) education. Even entry level officers in the British Navy were very young (adolescent ?) men weren't they? It seems that in this country this system morphed into public education voc schools. Is Europe still doing any kind of formal apprenticeships?

Catherine Johnson said...

they don't collaborate across specialties in most sciences

The realm I know pretty well is brain research, and researchers in that field must collaborate in order to win grant money.

At a minimum you have to have a statistician as part of the team.

I read all the grant proposals for NAAR; the teams were pretty large & their specialties varied.

I'm not sure we ever funded a proposal from one researcher working in one field...

Catherine Johnson said...

As I understand it, that's the concept behind the new French initiative. Say you're working on a particular economic question, you would also have a historian on the team who can work on the history of the phenomenon being studied - which I think is cool. (And vice versa, btw. I keep thinking Bayesian statistics are going to make their way into history.)

Even so - even though the disciplinary specialists involved were on board for this idea and motivated to make it work - the projects still ended up being "centered" in one discipline.

The rest of the team was "subordinate" to the main discipline.

Catherine Johnson said...

Paul - interesting question.

I'm sure you're right (I'll check with Ed.)

Somebody needs to pull together the various bits and pieces of research done on the "outcomes" of studying the liberal arts disciplines.

Ed has always said that the disciplines teach you to think. Until someone proves definitively that that's not the case, I believe him.

I also believe - and this we've got a huge amount of evidence for - that a liberal education makes you into a far better reader which, in turn, makes you more employable and is, I believe, causally related to higher incomes.

E.D. Hirsch is the person to see on this, but I've now come across all kinds of research in different areas that clearly support this idea.

A high-quality liberal education gives students a SCHEMA for each of the disciplines (and some of the specialties or sub-disciplines) along with what Hirsch calls the "exemplary facts."

In adult life, when you need to read a passage of prose on most subjects you can name, you draw upon that knowledge in order to understand what you're reading.

You know: the edu-world is constantly talking about "activating prior knowledge."

Well, where does that knowledge come from?

How does "prior knowledge" get inside people's heads?

When we're talking about prior knowledge of the liberal arts disciplines (and a lot of the time we are talking about prior knowledge of the liberal arts disciplines, that prior knowledge needs to come from school.

Catherine Johnson said...

gripe: We spent two years bugging the district about teaching our kids up to the standards of Europe and Asia.

We were repeatedly told that "American schools can't match schools in Europe and Asia. American schools have to teach everyone."

Well, number one, a community in which the mean household income is 100K is not "everyone." If a public school can't educate the kids hear to the level of kids in France and Asia (apparently it can't), we're in trouble.

But, number two, the idea that America "educates everyone" while the rest of the world educates only the elite hasn't been true for decades.

By the end of the twentieth century all nations, even the poorest, provided elementary schooling and beyond to most of their citizens.

p. 1
The Race Between Education and Technology

Catherine Johnson said...

oh gosh, I do have one answer.

We were given a tour of the.... oh heck. I've forgotten the name. It's a famous French aircraft carrier, an old-fashioned one.

They have a college on board. One of the available jobs in the French navy is college-professor-on-aircraft-carrier. The young man who was taking us around, who I think was a high school graduate, was now taking college courses in the liberal arts disciplines in order to advance in the navy.

Here's a young European who is already in a chosen career, and what is he studying in order to advance?

Foreign language, mathematics, history.

TerriW said...

Oh man, I'm always a day late and a dollar short on these good threads.

But anyways.

I believe I've mentioned before that when I was sixteen (11th and 12th grade), I started going to community college instead of high school. There was one small wrinkle in this plan. My school district required that Every Student take -- and pass! -- a full year, two hour a day course called Interdisciplinary Studies in order to graduate.

This course consisted of the following units: speech, sex ed, death and dying, peace studies ... and a few other things I don't even remember. This was almost 20 years ago. There was no way I was getting out of it.

So, every morning from about 7ish to 9ish, I'd be in what was the lamest, lowest common denominator piece of crap class you could imagine, and then leave there and go to my Ethics class. Or History of China or somesuch. I mean, it was just community college, but it was like the difference between preschool and high school.

First, Peace Studies. Oh, yes. In my district, up until that year, I had never studied American History past the Civil War -- and I was in Honors! (They even made our 8th grade American History class take the AP test!) So, several years on Revolutionary period through Civil War, and then 10 weeks on how much the Viet Nam war sucked.

Next, Death and Dying. That was another 10 weeks of joy that culminated in having to produce a children's book about Death. I still have it. I got a D! I cherish that D. They said my project was not "in the right spirit." I should scan it in. But nonetheless, 11th grade (or 12th grade, some of my classmates were), and we were doing crayola work 20 years ago.

I mean, you had to take -- and pass! -- this class in order to receive a diploma. Therefore, the class must be passable by anyone they would like to give a diploma to.

By spring, I was so fed up that I asked the teacher what he would do if I didn't show up the next day. (Hey, I had a big test at 10.) He said he'd give me two detentions. They had early morning detention as a possibility, so from then to the end of the year, I would come in at 6.30 for two days, bring coffee and donuts, study, and on the third day, not show up. He didn't seem to have a problem with that arrangement.

TerriW said...

I don't, however, believe that I've ever mentioned that I finished my B.S. at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, WA.

Evergreen is noted for having no majors, no grades and, uh, no classes. Well, that's not precisely correct. Generally, you sign up for one 48 credit course which consists of multiple threads of an interdisciplinary program that is team taught by a few different teachers. For instance, I took a 48 credit full-year course called "Matter and Motion" which consisted of Chemistry, Physics, Calc, Lab and Seminar with 3 profs.

If you are guessing that we were doing some new-fangled Calculus class that involved almost no proofs but lots of disease and wildlife population modeling on a TI-85, you win a big prize!

However, if you were our physics prof, and in January of that year, asking us to integrate something, and we look at you blankly because it's halfway through the year, and we've only covered how to use derivatives so far ... well, that's priceless. He had to teach us himself that day in class. I suspect he had words with the Calc guy later that day, and should I be too surprised that he wasn't there the next year?

I only wish I had kept my textbook so I could mail it to Catherine and make her cry.

Anonymous said...

Terri,

From what I understand, our local high school has a similar class that every single kid must take in order to graduate. It sounds very close to what you are describing. Apparently, there is alot of coloring and collage-making involved.

One more reason why we are looking at the local private school nearby.

SusanS