kitchen table math, the sequel: how did you get 3?

Monday, October 20, 2008

how did you get 3?








excerpts:

In any classroom anywhere you go, you’re going to have an incredibly broad range of kids, socially, academically, all across the spectrum. And so how does a single person as a teacher, as a manager, teach 20 to 30 kids in a single classroom when that ability range is so wide. I personally believe that the social skills and more importantly the students building social skills to help them work together to talk about math, to explain their thinking, to offer help when another student is struggling, and just as importantly for that child to be able to accept help — that’s a really difficult part of that equation. All of those skills are part of the social arena that we’re working in and without them I don’t know how you could teach a classroom with such a broad range of abilities.

[snip]

5th grade girl: “How did you get 3 when if you did the half of 8? That’s 4.”

5th grade boy: “I don’t know how I got 3.”

[snip]

Say we provide a math problem. Many students can find the answer very quickly. But can they explain the process that was happening in their mind? Can they explain it to somebody that doesn’t understand it? Take a really gifted kid, for example, and you have them try to explain a multiplication problem, a very basic one. They know the answer like that. And try to have them explain it to somebody that it doesn’t come so quickly to. It’s an amazing activity to watch, to see them think through the process. Oh well I know that 3 x 4 is 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3 and here’s how I see it and here’s what it looks like visually and that’s how I get to this answer. It’s an entirely different skill to be in tune with your own thinking. And so in order to do that in the classroom, those social skills need to be in place.

brought to you by The George Lucas' Educational Foundation
(If the video doesn't load, you can watch it at edutopia.)

update:

Here's the Singapore Math 4B placement test, which is the test kids take after completing 4th grade. (pdf file)

Here's the second part of the 1st question on the test:

1. (b) Arrange in increasing order.

5/8 0.602 3/5 0.66

I really want to see that one done with plastic squares.

OK, here's the first word problem on the test:

6. A meter of lace cost $0.40. Mrs. Jacobs bought 5.5 m of lace. She used 1.3 m to make a dress. She used the rest to make 4 cushions of the same kind.
(a) How much change did she receive if she paid for the lace with $10?
(b) How much lace did she use for each cushion? Give your answer in meters and centimeters.
Compare that to the problem tackled by the 5th graders in Alaska:

Mike has $8.00. Kelly has twice as much as Mike and Joe has half as much as Kelly.

The teacher's sole intervention, in the video, is to ask one of the students:
“Do you know what that word twice as much means?”

tripping up the gifted kids

It seems to be a big win for the teacher, figuring out a way to trip up a "gifted" kid on a simple multiplication fact. I wonder if this teacher forces the gifted students to define "twice" for their less able peers along with teaching them multiplication?

Of course, the idea that a 5th grade child who can answer "What is 3 x 4?" just like that is gifted may be the central Decline and Fall moment in this video.

Which is coming to us from George Lucas.

Parents have to get their kids out of the public schools if they can. Sauve qui peut.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

oh.my.god. I believe I've seen these same lessons in a kindergarten class.

Little Susan would be banging her head against the white board.

Uh, it would be an understatement to say that sixth grade is going to be a quite a shock for these kids.

SusanS

Catherine Johnson said...

how many gazillions of dollars do you suppose the George Lucas Foundation is pouring into making sure U.S. kids don't learn math at school?

Anonymous said...

It was more like a social skills class for disturbed children. We can't do math until we can talk about it.

Let's all hold hands and behold the shapes.

I could have sworn I heard him use the word "rigor" a few times.

SusanS

Catherine Johnson said...

This is the first time I've seen heterogeneous grouping used as the rationale for teaching social skills and group cohesion instead of math.

Interestingly, this teacher comes pretty close to stating outright that it's impossible to teach (or, rather, manage) a group of students with extremely varied levels of ability.

Catherine Johnson said...

This guy is in Alaska, btw.

Catherine Johnson said...

I'm looking at the Singapore Math placement test for the end of 4B, which is 4th grade. The kids in this video are in 5th grade.

Here's the first question:

Arrange in increasing order.
4.04
0.4
4.4
0.004

I wonder how they do that problem with same-size colored manipulatives?

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I want to see .004 with those little colored chips.

Well, that's one way to close the achievement gap--bring everyone down to the bottom. Then, voila! No gap.

Math kid just watched it with me. He's still laughing.

Of course, now he's gotta go color something for social studies.

SusanS

Catherine Johnson said...

from Illinois Loop:

University of Chicago Laboratory School: No surprise here -- in the early grades the school uses the infamous Everyday Math program developed by the University of Chicago School Mathematics Project (UCSMP). At the time of this writing (mid 2008) Barack Obama's daughters attend the lab school, where tuition is $18,492 for grades 1 through 4, and $20,286 for grade 5 through 8, and $21,480 for high schoolers.

Catherine Johnson said...

I was trying to remember what our friend whose child goes to the Chicago Lab School said about the math curriculum.

I had a vague memory that they were having trouble (possibly involving tutors) --- must check.

Catherine Johnson said...

now he's gotta go color something for social studies

it's 5:15 here

is it too late to take a nap?

le radical galoisien said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
le radical galoisien said...

Sauf qui peut ou sauve qui peut?

Car si on dit 'sauve qui peut', il me semble qu'on utilise l'imperatif, mais 'qui peut' n'est pas un vrai objet pour 'sauver'. Mais je crois que 'ce qui peut' marche.

Entk 'sauf ki peu' marche aussi, si on veu frapper en texto.

SteveH said...

It's tough to read through the Edutopia site and the comments by George Lucas. This math stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. Everything screams low expectations.

I started to select some quotes to comment about, but I'm not going to waste my time. What I find interesting is that they KNOW others have a different opinion. But, rather than supporting charter schools or their own chain of private schools, they want to force their idea of education on everyone.

Project-based learning could be rigorous and set high academic goals, but that never happens. It is anti-rigor. It is feel-good, play learning. They dream that inspiring, real world, top-down learning will get the job done. Dream on.

SteveH said...

"In any classroom anywhere you go, you’re going to have an incredibly broad range of kids, socially, academically, all across the spectrum."


Schools create this problem and then say that it can't be solved. Teachers see only their own problems.

Edutopia need a big dose of critical thinking.

Anonymous said...

Why are they arguing over how much half of eight is? Half of eight doesn't enter into this problem at all.

Mike has $8.00. Kelly has twice as much as Mike and Joe has half as much as Kelly.

Mike has $8.00.

Kelly has twice as much as Mike, so Kelly has 2 * $8.00 = $16.00.

Joe has half as much as Kelly, so Joe has $16.00/2 = $8.00, or the same amount as Mike.

There's no "half of eight" required in this problem at all. There's no 32, either, and I thought I heard one of the kids say something about 32.

le radical galoisien said...

I wouldn't say having a socioeconomically diverse classroom is a "problem" per se. It's what selective colleges are also trying to have.

(It's also satisfying to outcompete your richer classmates ... as well as the richer high school in the neighbouring district).

I was going to post a comment about the necessity of tracking kids with "wide range of academic ability" into differentiated classes based on ability, especially with regard with what INITIALLY caused that wide range, along with socioeconomic factors, but it was so long that I think I shall post a new post instead. Watch for new space. :)

Anonymous said...

I presented this problem to my 7 year old and he was able to solve it in less than a minute without using any manipulatives or group discussion. While social behavior skills are important, math skills ought to be the focus of math class.

Molly

Anonymous said...

My kid lived this about 5 years ago, for third grade. The practice of whole group math instruction for the section that has the mainstreamed students is now ended in our district's elementaries ...the state testing results proved that it didn't work to convey the necessary skills to any student in the class. I wonder if this teacher is accountable for any skill mastery?

SteveH said...

"Many students can find the answer very quickly. But can they explain the process that was happening in their mind? Can they explain it to somebody that doesn’t understand it?"

So, the schools create the wide ability problem, say that it's very difficult for the teachers, and then they expect kids to do their job. Presumably, it will then take just a K-12 education to become a teacher, or less, if the kids have to do the teaching.

Anonymous said...

I think I now understand why the first words out of my seven year old after school yesterday were "Mom, I don't want to be in any group in my class."

She is a second grader in a class with a range of skills from preK to 3rd grade. She has the 3rd grade skill.

It got worse last night when my fifth grader commented about wonderful it was that she wasn't in a group.

Where exactly was the fifth grade level math in the video?

Jane

Anonymous said...

Mike has $8, etc -- note that this is not even a problem, it is just a situation. It could be a problem if the kids were asked how many dollars do they have altogether, or something like that. They seem to spend more time talking about how to conduct a class than about math.

SteveH said...

In one section, Edutopia points to the project learning-based HighTechHigh charter schools (www.hightechhigh.org). I wanted to see exactly how this works, but I couldn't find anything on their web site. (It may be hidden.) By searching, I found a pdf on their curriculum with the following comment:


"HTH objects in principle to Advanced Placement (AP) courses because in order to pass the corresponding AP tests, students must be rushed through a proscribed, exhaustive, fact-based curriculum that does not lead to insight or understanding of the ideas in the course. At HTH we choose to emphasize deep project-based work over superficial "content coverage." However, because we know that some teachers and some students enjoy intensive academic courses like AP physics, we have made room for a limited number of these courses in our schedule. These courses are offered as electives and require a substantial amount of outside-of-class preparation."


So, project-based courses are better than AP courses, but if you want to take an AP course, you have to work harder.

Right.


No insight or understanding for AP courses, but you have to work harder.

Right.


And the non-AP kids get into better colleges.

Right.


My impression of the HighTechHigh schools is that you can do better than regular public schools just by trying harder. It's the Everyday Math angle. If teachers are trained very well, and if you try really hard, scores will go up. Relative proof for their ideology, but they are being intellectually dishonest about other curricula and the AP courses. If project-based learning is so effective, they why don't they teach the AP calculus content that way?

Catherine Johnson said...

lrg - translation please!

"Sauve qui peut" comes from a Heinlein novel (Starship Troopers, I think). It's used to mean "Every man for himself," iirc (in other words, "sauve qui peut" is broadcast to soldiers when a retreat - a rout - has been called).

What I want to say is "save yourself if you can," not "every man for himself."

How should I write it?

Catherine Johnson said...

This math stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly. That's why I shifted my own focus to the liberal arts disciplines a year ago.

Ed schools oppose the liberal arts disciplines.

Catherine Johnson said...

It is feel-good, play learning.

It's feel-good for the grownup, not for the kids.

Do those kids look happy?

Do they look like they're having the time of their lives working collaboratively in groups to solve problems?

They don't.

We're spending 13K a year to send C. to a school where the kids sit in rows and listen to experienced teachers give polished, engaging, and sometimes highly entertaining lectures. (Who knew teachers in a Jesuit school would have code words like "shoo-foo," short for "shut the f*** up"? Boys love that stuff.) Students listen, learn, and laugh. Sometimes they are moved. They ask questions; they discuss books & ideas.

Those kids, the kids at C's school who are not sitting in 21st century collaborative hands-on groups, are having the time of their lives.

I know this because C. told me the other day, as we were driving some place in the car, "[My new school] is like summer camp with homework."

Catherine Johnson said...

Googlemaster - you're right!

The whole thing is so dreary & dispiriting that I tuned out the content altogether.

Catherine Johnson said...

I don't know how rigorous project-based learning can be.

I've mentioned that Ed headed the CA History/Social Science project in the 80s; he never saw rigorous project-based learning, and that wasn't because no one was trying to do it.

The problem is that you've got teachers whose expertise is in different disciplines & who don't share common knowledge or methodologies or even, to some degree, language.

To pull all the disciplines into one project you almost have to create superficial "problems" if only to allow all the teachers to understand what the problem is and how to solve it.

Catherine Johnson said...

Ed's been talking to various teachers in Manhattan private schools. The push for interdisciplinary studies permeates the administrations of these schools, too. One teacher told Ed that her administrators recently tried to force the history and the English department to teach unified courses.

The department chairs were able to shoot this down. The teacher with whom Ed spoke, whose field is history, told him (paraphrasing), "I have nothing to say to English teachers."

She wasn't being hostile. She was saying that people who've studied English literature have a completely different approach to their field of study than people who've studied history.

History and English literature are different disciplines.

Catherine Johnson said...

I was going to post a comment about the necessity of tracking kids with "wide range of academic ability" into differentiated classes based on ability

bingo

Catherine Johnson said...

Molly ---- wow

7 years old

Catherine Johnson said...

So, project-based courses are better than AP courses, but if you want to take an AP course, you have to work harder.

Good catch.

This is why schools are eliminating AP courses. Scarsdale dumped AP courses in favor of their own teacher-created "AT" courses (Advanced Topics). AT courses are interdisciplinary; AP courses are content rich & disciplinary.

All schools that can get away with it are stampeding to interdisciplinary, project-based learning.

Catherine Johnson said...

lgm, if you're around -- can you give us more details?

SteveH said...

"... where the kids sit in rows and listen to experienced teachers give polished, engaging, and sometimes highly entertaining lectures."

And efficient and effective. It could also be that the teachers are dull and ineffective. The problem is that many project-loving educators don't have the critical thinking ability to separate teaching and curriculum.

The best I can figure is that these are top-down, big concept people. They buy into an idea and force everything to fit. This isn't so bad if they support charter schools for all types of charters, but in our state, charters (now that the moratorium has been lifted) still have to meet their approval.

Catherine Johnson said...

top-down -- absolutely

William Easterly's book is the relevant text here

These people have one big idea, which is Paolo Freire's big idea transplanted to U.S. public schools: inquiry learning via projects, not disciplines.

They impose it on kids and parents & assume everyone's happy and prepared for the 21st century.

No need to find out what the kids think or feel.

Anonymous said...

I don't get why 5th graders are using manipulatives for this very basic math question. I think my 8yo could do this in her head.

...I just asked her and she did, in about 5 seconds. She's not a math whiz or anything, she's just a regular kid.

--dangermom