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As a parent, I have often projected my own ambivalent feelings about testing onto my son, J. Even though time and time again, J. has tested well on standardized tests throughout his school career. So, when his scores came back in the 6th grade showing him in the 95th percentile in math when he normally scores in the 99th percentile, I wasn't too concerned. What was odd, however, were that kids who were 2 and 3 levels behind J. showed scores in the 99th percentile.
Even though J. had been involved with Northwestern's CTD program (Center for Talent Development) since kindergarten, I had never investigated their talent search program because, once again, I was anxious about the testing aspect. I figured that J. had been tested and prodded enough.
But then my eyes were opened when I read the book, What High Schools Don't Tell You by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross, and realized that I might be making a mistake. (KTM regulars--I highly recommend this book. It is packed with information and links.) The book lists 300+ secrets for parents. Here is secret #28:
“Four major universities offer talent searches and talent-search summer programs that remain among the best-kept American secrets and parents often learn about them only after it's too late."
So, I called Northwestern to get more information and spoke to the nice lady.
The basic gist is that if your child scores in the 95th percentile in a subject area, (This is for 7th grade. The other grades might be slightly different.), they recommend that he/she takes the EXPLORE test. If he/she scores in the 97th+ percentile, they recommend that your child take the ACT or SAT.
I told her my issue with his math scores and she mentioned that taking one of the big tests would give a better idea of his math abilities because there is no “ceiling” for middle-schoolers. Since J. was in Algebra 1 in the 5th grade and it was unlikely that there was any algebra on the 5th grade state test, it could stand to reason that children who had not had pre-algebra or algebra could score higher.
For an additional fee on top of taking the test (around $30) Northwestern then analyzes the scores and provides the parents with ideas about how to approach you kid’s education.
Sooooo, for the last 2 months we have been preparing for the ACTs by using the big prep books and hiring a whiz kid tutor. The experience has been enlightening for me as a parent. I assumed his math skills would be pretty good, but I got a lot of encouragement watching him perform the English and Reading tests. Plus, after his initial panic (“I can’t do that! That’s a test for high-schoolers!!”), he started to see that much of it wasn’t too hard and that he could handle a good deal of it.
The big “if” will definitely be the stamina required for taking the test. It’s clearly more suited to the older teen, so it will be interesting to see how it affects him. My attitude with him is to let him know that this is just for practice and to go for it.
31 comments:
Do you know what the 4 Universities are that do a talent search?
I'm aware only of Johns Hopkins and Northwestern. I wonder what the other two are and what they do?
My son took the SAT in 7th grade and scored well enough to take part in the distance learning opportunities, which turned out to be a life saver when he hit high school and needed the geometry.
Regardless of how you feel about testing, I think getting kids into the talent search is often the only way you can get appropriate coursework for some kids.
The Johns Hopkins talent program uses the SCAT test for grades 2 through 6. The SAT in 7 and 8. After 8th grade, its too late to get into the program, which is a shame, much of the benefit comes in the upper level high school courses.
You can get access to AP and honors courses that might not be offered at some public high schools.
Hi Lynn,
The four are John Hopkins Center for Talented Youth (CTY), Duke's Talent Identification Program (TIP), Northwestern's CTD, and University of Denver's Rocky Mountain Talent Search.
What was interesting to me was finding out that my school seemed to have no real opinion about it either way.
When I brought it up to the gifted coordinator(I was a bit nervous. It was my Catherine moment. The "I'm-doing-this-whether-you-like-it-or-not" moment.) she actually mentioned that it might be a good idea for a few kids in the school.
It just reaffirms that you can't wait for your school, you have to act. I could have easily let this go had I not realized how many people were taking advantage of it.
Johns Hopkins University, Duke University, University of Denver, and Northwestern University. However, there are others: Carnegie Mellon, Purdue, University of Washington, Stanford, UC Irvine...
Stanford also has EPGY (Education Program for Gifted Youth) that a lot of homeschoolers use.
Here's another one that Wissner-Gross mentions:
"Another national talent search worth mentioning, although it's extremely small and selective, is the Davidson THINK Summer Institute. This three-week program at the University of Nevada, Reno, only accommmodates up to sixty students twelve to fifteen years old, so don't expect to hear it talked up at school (or anywhere else)."
Susan!!!!
You did it!!!
This is Susan's first post!!!
Yay!!!!
I have a question about the 5% figure.
Is this only for math, or is this for verbal subjects, too?
My son took the SCAT test for Johns Hopkins, but we haven't taken advantage of any of the distance learning courses. They are expensive, we are dealing with issues ourselves at the kitchen table, and I don't want to overload his schedule. Our goal was to give him more practice with these kinds of tests.
I think I mentioned before that at his old school, the headmaster stopped telling parents (on purpose) about the Johns Hopkins test. He didn't want to deal with parents coming in with scores and telling him he had to do something. He already had the scheduling headache of one student who was taking a distance learning course rather than the regular math class. He didn't want more of that.
By the way, I'm giving an after-school SSAT prep course for middle school kids. I thought nobody would show up. I was surprised at the turnout. What I find so surprising is that K-8 schools are in denial. The SAT and ACT are so important in high school, but lower schools don't care one bit. They don't even care about the SSAT. (Private schools do.) There is absolutely no attempt to adjust their curricula to meet the needs of these tests.
It's not about teaching to the test. It's about teaching things that these tests think are important. If they disagree with what's on the tests, then they better let the parents know.
"Stanford also has EPGY (Education Program for Gifted Youth) that a lot of homeschoolers use."
Stanford relies on other tests, so they accepted my son's SCAT scores.
I guess my frustration is that I don't want more work for my son, I want the school to fix what they are doing. I don't expect the school to provide a GATE curriculum. I just want a focus on content and skills, with no more coloring, except in art class.
It's not about teaching to the test. It's about teaching things that these tests think are important. If they disagree with what's on the tests, then they better let the parents know.
Steve Sound Bite Alert!!
When our school complains about so much testing, I’ll ask if they disagree with teaching our kids what is on these tests.
The way I like to put it is:
What other kind of learning is so important that is makes flunking trivial standardized tests acceptable?
Is this only for math, or is this for verbal subjects, too?
I believe so.
Wissner-Gross also says that should your child apply to research programs, contests, and other academic opportunities later on in high school, many applications and interviewers will ask if your kid participated in a talent search. Just taking the test and qualifying means participating.
This is why I finally broke down and did it. The surprise aspect was the learning that happens with the preparation. Bright kids are often bored (and confused, as we've discussed) in school. These tests are very pointed in the what they want. There is no coloring or dancing around anything. I think he's almost relieved that all of the coloring and group discussions are not really what colleges care about in the final analysis.
At first, he freaked out when he saw the science test until he realized that you don't really have to know much science. It's logic and reasoning and reading charts. Well, that's easy enough. Most of the info you need is in the question.
Steve,
The funny thing is that I thought I was all alone. I had told Catherine about it, but I knew of no one else doing it, so I thought people would think I was crazy, pushy mom.
I learned later that several schools involve their middle-schoolers, while others don't.
J. was concerned that he'd stand out and look stupid for being there with a bunch of high-schoolers. J.'s tutor, Whiz Kid, who went to a magnet gifted grade school(k-8, I think), told J. that over 2/3's of the 7th grade were expected to take both the SAT and ACT.
Since then, I've found out there are a few kids at J.'s school taking it, but no one says anything.
By the way, I'm giving an after-school SSAT prep course for middle school kids. I thought nobody would show up. I was surprised at the turnout.
This was the problem I encounted in my area. In rich areas or parts of Chicago, there were prep courses aimed at middle-schoolers. There was nothing around me. I just felt that a prep course for big teenagers wanting to get into a college wouldn't help him in the confidence department, so I started hunting for tutors.
This is Susan's first post!!!
Ohmygod, it was such a mess at first. I went to review and then I couldn't get back for some reason. Then I was afraid I'd post it before I was finished. Finally, I just copied it to Word and got it written out before I pasted it back.
Did I mention that I hate computers as much as I hate math?
K, my college freshman, started participating in the Midwest Talent Search as a 6th grader. If I recall, she received a letter inviting her to do so as a result of her scores on the 5th grade ISAT test.
She embraced the idea, and took the ACT and SAT in alternate years. At the middle school's end of year honors day, somebody from the district office hands out certificates to the students who take the test.
M, our 9th grader, started taking participating in 7th grade. Again, I left the decision to her.
I see mostly positive benefits to participating. For us, the ground rules were that the child had to understand that this is a test that college bound juniors are taking. So, if your math score isn't as high as the reading score, don't be discouraged, especially if you are a more of a language brain than a math brain.
That is, if you aren't a math brain, and you haven't taken trig or geometry as an 8th grader, don't freak out; you'll learn that content in your high school courses.
I think a very positive aspect of participating is that it gets the student familiar with the whole test-taking environment, so that when it comes time to take either the ACT or SAT for real, the process itself is already familiar.
Also, there is a certain endurance factor involved. Both of my kids have said that by the time they entered the final hour, they were tired, and had headaches, and their ability to concentrate was waning. You want them to have already experienced that prior to the junior year, because then they know what to expect.
When it came time to take the ACT and the PSAT for real, K, our older child, did do several practice tests. This provided her an opportunity to figure out what she needed to brush up on.
Our school district administers the Explore test to all 9th graders; my understanding is that this helps all concerned to assess strengths and weaknesses.
"Did I mention that I hate computers as much as I hate math?"
I hate chisels*, but sometimes you just have to use tools you hate, because nothing else will do the job.
</pompous blowhard>**
8-)
* Though not as much as I hate diagramming sentences.
** Well, maybe <~pompous blowhard>. Opinions vary.
I still have to learn how to diagram sentences.
After I "finish" learning math...
Now that I know I don't know grammar, it's driving me nuts.
well....I am feeling hopeful that C. is going to emerge from this school year having a reasonably good grounding in algebra 1
meanwhile I'll keep trucking with the bar models, and with Singapore's fraction lessons, when we get to them
"Now that I know I don't know grammar, it's driving me nuts."
Yes, yes, yes. I'm going through the Hake Grammar lessons with my daughter and cringing at all I don't know.
The same thing happened when I learned German, by the way. I would speak quite confidently until the grammar became more and more complicated. I was so afraid of messing up, that I would often opt to clam up.
Knowledge can be a very scary thing.
Alrighty, Mr. Sundseth. That'll do. A page of gerunds for you to diagram.
I always have be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world. I believe I was the last person to get a computer, to get a cell phone, to get cable.
So, was that a Shrek "that'll do" or a Miss Grundy "that'll do"? Since the lack of an exclamation point tends to argue against the imperative mood, I'll just have to assume the former.
And would those gerunds be nouns, attributive nouns, or adjectives (assuming that you see a difference between the latter two categories, which is at least in question)?
(And I really do hate chisels.)
8-)
Concernedctparent said:
"I'm going through the Hake Grammar lessons with my daughter and cringing at all I don't know."
Can you tell me how it is going with the Hake book? Do you still recommend it?
I'm looking to home school my son for 5th grade and would love to know the other subjects and textbooks you are using that have good results.
Thanks for any info you can share
Still loving the Hake Grammar. It's efficient, sequential, spaced repetition of concepts. It's very complete (grammar, writing, vocabulary/usage, dictation). It tests for content knowledge and understanding at regular intervals. Just think Saxon does grammar. You may need to supplement with other writing assignments unless you have a curriculum that's already heavy in writing. Also, if you have a very verbal child, you can probably do the Hake 6. That's what my fifth grader is doing this year and so far, there hasn't been anything that she's struggled with. If you want specifics on other materials we're using feel free to email me at humblepov at gmail dot com.
My favorite part thing about Hake Grammar is that the examples are actually interesting to read: literature, history, science, etc.
Here's Dave Barry's explanation of how to diagram a sentence from a "Ask Mr. Language Person" column:
"First spread the sentence out on a clean, flat surface, such as an ironing board. Then, using a sharp pencil or X-Acto knife, locate the "predicate," which indicates where the action has taken place and is usually located directly behind the gills. For example, in the sentence: "LaMont never would of bit a forest ranger," the action probably took place in a forest. Thus your diagram would be shaped like a little tree with branches sticking out of it to indicate the locations of the various particles of speech, such as your gerunds, proverbs, adjutants, etc."
Yeah, that'll do it....
And would those gerunds be nouns, attributive nouns, or adjectives (assuming that you see a difference between the latter two categories, which is at least in question)?
ok, that's just mean
My favorite part thing about Hake Grammar is that the examples are actually interesting to read: literature, history, science, etc.
wait ----
examples??
you mean, they don't just tell your kid to "Google sh**"? (quoting a middle school child)
oh gosh
I may have to go back to reading Dave Barry
I boycotted him after he dumped his wife
him and Kevin Costner
also Woody Allen
Woody Allen is staying on the s-list for good, but Dave Barry could make a comeback...
ok, that's just mean
Well, you know he can be difficult. As those anonomous posters found out.
And what's an attributive noun? I have no idea.
An attributive noun is a noun that's acting mostly adjectivy. (Pardon the technical jargon. 8-) The wikipedia article on adjectives says this:
"Unlike adjectives, nouns acting as modifiers (called attributive nouns or noun adjuncts) are not predicative; a red car is red, but a car park is not "car"."
So in "running shoes", "running" is an attributive noun, since the shoes aren't running. OTOH, in "running water", "running" is an adjective, since the water is running.
Now this actually points to my basic problem with sentence diagramming: You don't need to know any of that to write well, but you do need it to diagram a sentence correctly.
Sentence diagrams are a tool for linguists, not for writers. As a writer, if you're not sure that your sentence is grammatical, recast it to something you are sure is grammatical. If you aren't sure, your audience will probably stumble -- that's a cardinal sin for a writer.
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