kitchen table math, the sequel: Chinese moms, part 3

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Chinese moms, part 3

my favorite passage:
What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.


Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
by Amy Chua
JANUARY 8, 2011

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother

13 comments:

RMD said...

The marketing on this book is fascinating. The thoughts related in this excerpt aren't new, nor are they specific to Chinese moms, dads, or any other group. By taking a very controversial stand, I think she has brought out a very interesting and important topic for discussion.

SteveH said...

This has been our guiding principle, but we have always been flexible and tried to apply these ideas as covertly as possible. Although he is in high school, we can still get a form of reverse psychology to work. Then again, there is nothing like stating what is expected and walking away.

SteveH said...

"I think she has brought out a very interesting and important topic for discussion."

I'm not so optimistic. I think she evokes such visceral feelings that it will be hard to separate the different issues, especially at the level of Amazon comments or blog bites.

Jean said...

That was my favorite part too; it's a tenet of classical homeschooling as well. I'm less enthused about the whole tortuous piano-playing bit, but I do like the assumption of strength idea.

PhysicistDave said...

This forum has some concrete info that sheds further light on where Chua actually ended up as a result of the experiences related in the book:

http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal

Specifically, in response to an e-mail query, Chua wrote back to one of the participants:
> Dear Christine: Thank you for taking the time to write me, and I'm
so sorry about your sister. I did not choose the title of the WSJ
excerpt, and I don't believe that there is only one good way of raising
children. The actual book is more nuanced, and much of it is about
my decision to retreat from the "strict Chinese immigrant"
model.
Best of luck to you,
Amy Chua

So, it is clear that Chua learned (or thinks she learned!) the lesson that she did, in some respects, go too far.

(The person Chua responded to remains skeptical.)

Another commenter, who seems to be a friend of Amy’s, wrote:
>For a little perspective, the WSJ essay is an excerpt from Amy's new book and the set-up for a thoroughly heart-warming (and funny funny funny) memoir of her experience in extreme parenting, revealing the rewards—and the costs—of raising her children the Chinese way. Amy told me over several convos this weekend that she didn't write this book to tell other people how to parent! It’s not about promoting the Chinese model. "It’s really the story of me trying to raise my daughters the same way my parents raised me: how it worked in some ways, and not in others," she said.
>The whole Tiger Mom thing pretty much gets the big kabosh anyway when Amy's younger daughter goes ballistic and rebels. Paraphrasing Amy to keep this short: "I actually wrote this book in a moment of crisis, after my younger daughter seemed to turn against everything I stood for and it felt like I was losing her and everything was falling apart. After one terrible fight, I sat down at my computer, and even though I usually have writers block, this time the words just poured out – I wrote the first 2/3 of the book in two months. I showed every page to my daughters, and my husband. It was like family therapy.

Putting everything together, my own impression is that Chua remains convinced that the values she shares with many people here at ktm are still valid, but that she realizes her attempts to implement those values were, in some ways, unwise.

I myself actually probably differ from Chua’s basic values more than many people here: I think that learning can be and should be largely rewarding in and of itself rather than the means to getting into a good college, a good career, etc. And, I do not think the initial learning process has to be painful: I think that even young kids can understand that there is some “grunt work” needed before you can achieve any sort of mastery, and that that grunt work need not be terribly unpleasant. This was in fact my experience with my own kids’ piano lessons (Suzuki, like Chua): they never hated going to piano lessons or getting on the piano for practice. Admittedly, this is partly because I ran practices in a much more laissez-faire manner than my Chinese wife (or the piano teacher!) would have liked, but, after eight years, the kids still like piano, are doing their own compositions, exploring various classical composers, etc.

Dave

LynnG said...

After reading all of this, I made my 10 year old do an extra page of decimal division and multiplication. She is really struggling with controlling her decimal point and even the extra practice of Singapore Math wasn't getting her procedural fluency any faster or accurate.

Sometimes parents just have to insist on hard work. That being said, there was plenty of Spongebob, too. I'll never make it as a Tiger Mom.

Jean said...

Lynn, I just made my 10yo do a review page of decimal division too. She wasn't thrilled, but now she understands it. :)

Anne Dwyer said...

"Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more."

Except for the plateaus. Progress in anything is very non linear. Even a child who works very hard at something will find that things get hard again when they make a jump to a new level. We experience this every year in Irish dance. My daughter's teacher always teaches dances that are stretch goals for the class. My daughter does not take well to this and wants to quit every February. By April, she wants to enter every competition she can. Now that she is a teenager (and not in her right mind), it is very hard to get her to keep going.

SteveH said...

I find it depressing to read some of the blogs and Amazon book comments. All parents and schools push to one level or another, but many of the comments presume that pushing is defined to be whatever level is wrong. That level, however, is never defined.

Direct teaching could be called pushing. You push to send kids to school, but it's bad if you push them to learn? It has to be natural? Is holding kids back a grade considered to be pushing? This changes in 7th and 8th grades when schools push students to take control of their own learning. In other words, they push them to be natural.

For the last couple of decades, more college demand has forced much more pushing. Harvard is not that good, but the students they select are. Is pushing getting a bad "rep" because of supply and demand? When anything is desired by so many (like getting into an Ivy League school), you will probably lose out to those willing to push well past your limit. The easy solution is to focus on the content and not the college.

Catherine Johnson said...

I think she evokes such visceral feelings that it will be hard to separate the different issues,

That's my prediction (though I wouldn't put money on being right...)

Catherine Johnson said...

After reading all of this, I made my 10 year old do an extra page of decimal division and multiplication.

I saw this comment yesterday & burst out laughing.

PhysicistDave said...

SteveH wrote:
> Harvard is not that good, but the students they select are. Is pushing getting a bad "rep" because of supply and demand? When anything is desired by so many (like getting into an Ivy League school), you will probably lose out to those willing to push well past your limit. The easy solution is to focus on the content and not the college.

Exactly right.

Various commenters around the Web during this firestorm Chua has provoked are trying to make that point.

Alas, as was said above, Chua has evoked such visceral reactions that it is hard to see the third alternative: not just lackadaisacal vegged-out couch potatoes vs. insanely driven kids who are forced to publicly prove their level of accomplishment at far too early an age.

There is a third alternative: The real focus should be on learning real content for the long-term – learning for the sake of self-enrichment and to live a full and productive life as an adult.

But that doesn’t make a good sound-bite.

Dave

SteveH said...

There is a problem in certain fields like music. If you are shooting for the competitive stars, will you be happy if you miss? There is not the same job continuum in music as there is in science or engineering. I've seen too many professional musicians who end up not liking their life. It's perhaps safer to minor in music and treat it as an avocation. There is the old lament for many areas: "How do you make a small fortune as a ___________? You start with a large fortune." Another one I've heard is something like: "Never go into a field where smart people are."

My son's resume in music is quite extensive. His resume in math is nothing. Pushing also reflects the competitive demands and potential hopes and dreams. However, we expect our son to take over the pushing. If he can't or won't do it, then there is little we can do to make it happen. OK, but why did you only get a 91 on that test?