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I'm definitely at #2 on the list. If I am spending my money on Kumon and educational workbooks and programs, why am I sending my children to public school?
I don't think I have the willpower to wait for two years to change my school. For instance, last night my third grader was reviewing for the science section of the SOL. We are going over some questions and he stopped and looked at me and asked, "What does it mean to ask an inappropriate question?"
He went on to tell me that at the beginning of the year his class was having a science discussion and the topic was life cycles. He asked his teacher a question about an egg. What was the white part of an egg? Where did the egg come from? She told him it was an inappropriate question and to go home and ask his parents. He said he was so embarrassed because all the kids stared at him.
He also mentioned that once the topic was electricity and Ben Franklin. His question was why did a kite conduct electricity and not a balloon? Again, inappropriate question.
I told him perhaps it was his timing and honestly perhaps she really just didn't know the answers to his questions.
He said she doesn't call on him anymore in class. He figures it is because he asks the wrong questions.
He said the teacher's aide told him it wasn't nice to trick the teacher.
Now, this is a kid who scored in the 95th percentile in science on the ITBS.
He is told his questions are inappropriate and he shouldn't trick the teacher.
If this continues for the next two years, what will be the outcome? My nine year old has become cynical about school.
He asked, "These people went to college?"
The only good thing about this story (there's nothing good about this story, but bear with me).... the only good thing about this story is that it allows me to say something good about my own school which is that I can't imagine any child here being told that a question about eggs or electricity was inappropriate.
Also, I suspect that most of our teachers would be able to answer these questions -- or if not would know how to find the answer and would do so.
We basically have to grit our teeth and get through one more year of middle school. The high school is going to be drastically better.
BUT I'm worried about the high school for two reasons:
a) opaque Honors selection process (we're going to be lobbying for reform)
b) district-wide belief that learning is the responsibility of the student, and district-wide practice of making tutoring referrals to Irvington teachers
I'm hearing that kids need tutoring in Earth science, in chemistry; I'm hearing that "Honors Physics is a nightmare" ..... and it's not as if I have a wide network of sources inside the high school.
I'm also hearing about Honors (or AP?) ELA teachers who don't hand back papers until midway through the year, at which point kids discover they're getting B- s in a college transcript course.
I'm hearing about Honors ELA courses where students read 1 or 2 books because "we don't have enough copies" to read more books....
So.
I'm concerned.
The high school is going to be radically superior to the middle school. When I talk to parents who are finally out of the middle school they say things like, "The middle school is a horror."
But I'm not going to be able to tutor C. in science, and I don't even want to think about how the writing assessment is going to strike me.
The school needs to set up a system for second opinions on writing assessment. It's time for all schools to do so. (I'll post the various studies soon.)
26 comments:
The only thing worse than being a parent in this system is being a teacher in this system. My daughter will NEVER attend public school. I will teach her myself. I knew I got that engineering degree for a reason. It was to teach my own daughter.
I'm going to the beach and try to have a good summer before my husband divorces me over this.
E
M
T
Paula,
"If I am spending my money on Kumon and educational workbooks and programs, why am I sending my children to public school?"
I sometimes ask myself the same question. In my case, the Middle School is the better school and it's HS I'm worried about. We started our older daughter (now a Sophomore) too late on Kumon, and although she has benefitted greatly (and VERY grudingly) she would probably rather go to the dentist than do math.
Our 5th grader (who is already in MS due to overcrowding) is basically at the top of her class in math (no not genius material or anything like that, just knows her stuff). The Middle School principal, an ex-Marine, is leading the charge to move away from constructivism and I feel confident that our daughter will be challanged in math throughout MS.
My concern is when she goes to HS and they haven't changed their math teaching methods. I have been to the family math night at the HS and believe me, the teachers have bought into constructivism, hook, line and sinker. I simply don't see them changing their stripes.
Regarding inappropriate questions in science class, it could be worse (at least in my opinion). You could have the University of Colorado Conference of World Affairs meet at Boulder HS. Students were required to attend where they were "irresponsibly advised to have sex and use drugs"
chris
Paulav-
Major kudos to your son--I see these as great questions--he is thinking about relationships and expressing his curiosity and asking, "what if?"
What is disheartening is that your son is actually thinking outside the box and it sounds like the teacher isn't comfortable with it because she may not know the answers. So, rather than seize this as a wonderful teaching moment, she becomes defensive instead.
When I first started teaching at the college level several years ago, I would get all kinds of questions that I couldn't answer at that moment; it's just inevitable. There are all kinds of ways to deal with this from a teaching perspective. For the teacher.
I have to share my favorite anecdote. My kid had a fabulous sixth grade teacher. One day, the class came across the word "comeuppance" and someone asked what it meant. The teacher stopped, thought about it for a moment, and then said, "I don't know; let's find out." She proceeded to look up the word in the dictionary, talk about it with the kids, and then relate it to the context in which the word had first appeared. The kids then adopted "comeuppance" as their class word, and looked for new ways to use this word.
Because of my own twisted sense of humor, I quipped that that was the line made famous by Mae West, as in "Why don't you 'comeuppance' and see me sometime . . ."
Why stay in public school is the question of the moment it seems.
Friends matter, I suspect. Team sports, chorus, and band are hard to replicate on your own.
Mostly, we are sticking with public school as long as possible as long as they are not actively damaging my kid.
Paula's experience seems tied to this one teacher. I would probably talk to as many parents in the 4th grade as possible and see if there is a teacher that might be better suited to your son's curiousity for next year.
Then lobby hard for a better placement. Call the new teacher over the summer, meet with her/him early on next year.
I've gotten much more proactive on this front. A good teacher with a few years experience and a personality that fits with your kid can more than make up for dificiencies in the curriculum.
I haven't heard the "it's inappopriate" response before.
I wish I had a nickle for every time I've heard, "You don't need to know that."
and now as an adult it's turned to "Your kids don't need to know that."
I don't NEED to know what the white of an egg is, I just need to be able to scramble it when I get my job at Waffle House.
I don't NEED to know why the quadratic formula works, I just NEED to apply it. Or conversely, you don't NEED to memorize the formula as long as you can derive it.
"nickel"
Behold, I don't NEED to know how to spell either.
Paula,
Does you school have a gifted program? If he's scoring in the 95th percentile I would think he might qualify for some services.
At least in gifted programs the teachers tend to welcome the interesting question.
Did you ever talk to this teacher? I'm so curious as to why it's "inappropriate" to ask these questions.
In my case, the Middle School is the better school and it's HS I'm worried about.
Oh boy, that's very, very worrisome.
gosh
I suspect high school will be a radical turn-around here.
I would say that it's a universal view that the high school is head and shoulders above the middle school.
I WANT TO ADD, HOWEVER, THAT THE MIDDLE SCHOOL HAS SOME SUPERB TEACHERS (in case anyone from the school is reading, obviously).
The middle school does have some superb teachers..... and Christopher ended up with an almost perfect team this year.
The problem with the middle school is a horrifically bad administration, far, far too many crayola curriculum projects, and no writing instruction.
Though I have to say that I personally - I'm an outlier on this - am not eager for the school to teach writing.... because they haven't got the manpower to do it; we're going to be wrangling with the school over assessment, etc.
We know we can teach Christopher to write, and we pretty much know he has some knack for it anyway.
BUT that's not the correct attitude for the school as a whole.
The district needs to be teaching writing.
It's just that the lack of writing in struction in the middle school doesn't make us crazy the way it makes everyone else crazy.
The only thing worse than being a parent in this system is being a teacher in this system. My daughter will NEVER attend public school. I will teach her myself. I knew I got that engineering degree for a reason. It was to teach my own daughter.
That is awful to hear.
See the WSJ story on St. Joseph's High School in the South Bronx?
Full year tuition: $2,750. Total cost per student per year: $3,868.
Has an "open enrollment policy," accepting "any child regardless of faith, academic ability or emotional stability."
He went on to tell me that at the beginning of the year his class was having a science discussion and the topic was life cycles. He asked his teacher a question about an egg. What was the white part of an egg? Where did the egg come from? She told him it was an inappropriate question and to go home and ask his parents. He said he was so embarrassed because all the kids stared at him.
Well, I am a teacher that don't allow students to ask questions in the middle of the lesson. I give them 3-5 minutetes at the end, when I finish my lecture. So If I didn't answer someone's question before a student asked it, they have a chance to ask.
In many cases, qustions they ask ARE inappropriate - out of the blue, demonstrating that student doesn't know anything of what was studied, hasn't read the text etc. The question asked MUST be on the topic that we study at the moment and be something that student cannot get from the the text provided. Then I will answer it.
From what you are saying, Paula, the discussion was on life cycles. Life cycles of insects? Then the question about a chicken egg is a little out... It should be covered when they study reproduction and development of animals.
Life cycle of animals? Than the structure of the egg had to be covered by the teacher - nutrient part, buffering part...
In many instanses students taught in "inquiry system" tend mix together all different things. But if the learning is structured, it's better to wait until the proper time and "not to run in front of the train".
I personally object teaching science before grade 4. It's not science yet, only observational activities are developmentally appropriate. However teachers tend to "explain" things to kids and later students end up with thousands of misconceptions.
Pardon the spelling - doesn't, questions...
Yes, Susan, the school has a gifted program and my son will be screened for it based on his CogAt (97% in spatial ability) and his ITBS scores.
I have talked with his teacher before about his questions and she has said that she doesn't understand what he is asking. She said, "I don't understand his questions. What does he want to know?"
I have yet to ask her about the "inappropriate" questions. I plan to ask her once the state test is over next week.
This year began as a bust and has continued downhill from the get go. All I hear is how deficient my kids are. They are average. My third grader can't focus or follow directions and my kindergartener is inconsistent.
I am a stay-at-home mom who checks the homework and goes over the mistakes when classwork is brought home. I work with my kindergartener on writing, reading and math.
I do not volunteer everyday in that school because I am too freaking busy trying to stay ahead at home. Copying worksheets and researching the best reading, writing and math programs for a third grader and kindergartner.
Then, after all this, I am told today by my kindergartener's teacher the following:
"Thank you for taking such an active role in Rxxx progress, I am pleased to hear that you are already looking into things for the summer time for him--that is fantastic to hear! Rxxx can only progress with all your help over the summer!"
I am fed up. It is not a matter of teaching styles. Two different teachers, two different kids, same crappy attitude from the school.
Exo,
According to my son, the class was discussing birds. There isn't a textbook. There are worksheets glued into a notebook.
I have talked with my son about waiting until the end of a lesson to ask questions. In other words, don't interrupt the teacher.
I think the teacher could have redirected him without telling him to go home and ask his parents the question.
Paula, I agree then. In such discussion the egg stucture HAD to be mentioned, and the question was appropriate. And parents have nothing to do with answering the question. It's not a parents' job)))Though looks like we are taking it as a job nevertheless...I teach, pre- and re-teach my kindergartener at home everyday. His teacher told me openly (teacher-to-teacher talk, heh...)that it's going to be my responsibility to make him memorize time table, since she can't do rote learning.
Exo,
Thanks for the comments. If you don't mind me asking, how do you teach your son reading and writing? If you said in previous posts, I can't remember.
Paula
This is interesting.
I'm beginning to wonder whether constructivism routinely "positions" the child as not very bright.
I mean: intrinsically and perhaps unconsciously positions the child as not very bright.
Your comments are reminding me of my days in film school.
We used to talk about "spectator-positioning." I don't know whether people still talk about this, but it was an interesting and useful idea.
"Spectator positioning" was the idea that films "posit" a generic spectator - a type, I guess you could say.
For instance, most U.S. films have a window-on-the-world form of invisible editing, so the spectator has a kind of God's eye view of the goings-on.
This is a much more subtle way of looking at films and seeing what they're about than simply taking the character onscreen as people doing stuff.
I think you could translate this idea (and probably should translate this idea) to education.
In fact, educators **do** translate this idea. Constructivists claim that direct instructivists position the child as a blank slate.
BUT.... there's more to it, isn't there?
Constructivists say learning must be "effortful"; "learners" must "struggle," etc.
What does that tell us?
I've been getting the message about Christopher, since we got to the middle school which is almost by definition more constructivist than K-5, that he's .... not obviously bright.
Well, this is the kid who won the best student award at the end of 5th grade & whose reading comprehension on ITBS is at the 95th percentile - there should be no issue of "bright."
What flabbergasts me is that with a kid like Christopher the CORE assumption should be: the sky's the limit.
JUST TEACH HIM STUFF. HE'LL LEARN IT.
Is he mathematically gifted? No.
Is he verbally gifted?
I don't know, but I assume he's probably somewhere in "GATE" land.
PLUS he's organized, motivated, backed by parents who are paying attention ----- WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE???
JUST TEACH HIM MATH.
IF I ASK FOR ANSWER KEYS, GIVE ME ANSWER KEYS.
Instead we get constant hints and outright statements about students "struggling," students "not belonging" in classes, and on and on and on.
There just seems to be a continual line of chatter coming out of the middle school about the kids not being as smart as their folks think they are.
Meanwhile I'm looking at ALL of these kids and thinking: THIS DISTRICT NEEDS TO PICK UP THE IRVINGTON BELL CURVE AND MOVE IT 50 YARDS DOWN THE FIELD.
I'll never forget the math chair telling me Christopher needs to learn math in order to graduate from high school.
Unbelievable.
Or his English teacher, last year, telling me, "Don't worry. He'll get it."
This is a kid with reading comprehension in the 95th percentile.
He'll get it.
As far as I can tell, every last kid in my district is smarter than the school thinks he or she is.
Certainly smarter than the middle school thinks.
My sense of instructivists is that they look at a kid and see a person who can learn.
Catherine, that's definetely the position. Every kid CAN learn the school program. It is why it's the school program, not college program. That the level that EVERYONE should be able to achieve (with or without struggle). By the way, I thought than constructivist position on struggle was the opposite - "learning IS fun and effortless".
Paula, I teach my son reading and writing in English following in many cases the structure of reading and writing in Russian. It's phonics in both cases, and I do it parallelly. For instance, defenition and recognition of syllables - I do it at the same time in both languages. Or vowels and consonants. I use Russian textbooks for the 1st grade and follow their structure, going over the rules in English and practicing them till perfection. For writing I use dictations (both languages) and "paste the leeter or word" exercises. Also, in Russian language and literature textbooks they often use the exercise of re-telling the story or describing the picture (orally or in writing). BTW, same exercise is used in math - look at the picture, create the word problem that with end with the following question".
I don't really care what they do in school. Yes, we do the HWs as a matter of learning obedience. But we are much ahead of the game (at leat in math) now. We are up to multiplication on 4.
I spend about 25 minutes doing math with him, and about 30 min for both languages almost every day. He likes math much more than reading and writing.
Exo,
My son likes math much more than reading and writing also! I spend about 20 minutes doing math and 30 minutes doing reading and writing. We do the HW as well.
I shouldn't care what the school says, yet I'm afraid they are trying to label him like they tried to do with my third grader. This is his teacher's first year of teaching and some of the comments she makes are strange.
I'm positive he will be fine for first grade, but kindergarten has been a huge disappointment.
By the way, I thought than constructivist position on struggle was the opposite
NO!
Learning is effortful!
Catherine,
What I would like, and you have mentioned many times, is value added assessment. I believe this is what direct instructivists strive for, right?
I'm reading "War Against the Schools' Academic Child Abuse" by Engelmann.
The section where he discusses assessment just jumped off the page at me.
"The assessments would not be a "report card," but specific information on how well each student is learning what the teacher is teaching."
Exactly. If you tell me my kid is "disconnected" from math (yes, the principal said that at the beginning of the year), then why is he? What have you done to assess him other than make some flippant remark? Same for my kindergartner. If you say there are inconsistencies in his basic skills, then how and why are you coming to this conclusion? WHERE IS THE ASSESSMENT?
My third grader is not gifted. He is bright and wants to learn. He can learn if he is taught. Same for my other son.
I think the "your kid isn't that bright" stance is an excuse for schools to take less responsibility/accountability for the performance of every student.
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